Requiring Association Membership - Pu...

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Author Message John Hunter Senior Member Username: johnhunter Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 12:46 pm:    For some trade areas, we routinely require membership in a trade association - for example WI for Architectural Woodwork and NTMA for Terrazzo - as a quality assurance requirement. However, the question has been asked as to whether this is an appropriate requirement for a public-bid project. Can anyone share any relevant experiences? Richard A. Rosen, CSI, CCS, AIA Senior Member Username: rarosen Post Number: 104 Registered: 08-2006 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 01:04 pm:    We do a great deal of work for local municipalities, school districts, and the PA Department of General Services. All must follow the same state public bidding requirements. That said we specify AWI, NTMA, TCNA and a rash of other national association standards and require either membership or certifications as QA requirements. We have never been questioned or had a protest by a bidder. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1209 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 01:36 pm:    I write specs for publicly bid school projects. In many of my sections I require manufacturers/installers be a member of a trade association or be approved by the Architect. Like Richard, I too have never had any issues with bidders. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 04:41 pm:    There can be many reasons, not related to the quality of the product, for a manufacturer not to belong to a particular organization or to have the product certified by a particular organizaiton. When an organization becomes dominant it is easy for the organization to distort the marketplace by its policies and standards. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 05:39 pm:    Sometimes that "distortion" brings consistency (if not improvement) to the product delivered. You can watch what is going on with the concrete polishers right now as they try to develop a national association with standards. I recently had a long conversation with a cast stone manufacturer in the Houston area who did not want to pay the annual dues but also did not want people inspecting his plant and "stealing his trade secrets." I was left wondering if really thought that he couldn't learn anything from his colleagues around the country. In this particular case, this was for a local school project in a city where he had sold pieces to many of the schools. We discussed why I had required membership in the Cast Stone Institute. When I told him that for public work, I thought this was a standard that was worth having, he said that he could understand, but... I can't keep track of every qualified manufacturer/installer who has satisfactorily supplied/installed stuff in all the markets I deal with. Requiring membership in an association (or compliance with their standards) is a way of creating a minimum level of capability. Steve Taylor Senior Member Username: steveatwi Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2008 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 06:52 pm:    Woodwork Institute believes that there may be some restraint of trade issues involved in requiring that work be done by a member of our association. We don't include such a requirement in our guide specs, but we don't argue with it if it's there. That said, I don't think it makes a difference. I see a lot of jobs with that requirement in the specs but the shop is not a member. I don't know of a case of a shop having been rejected on that basis. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1171 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 07:37 pm:    and to follow up Peter's comment -- if you're working in some other part of the country than where your office is located, then referencing the standard becomes more critical. You may not have a project with that subcontractor again -- there may not be an incentive on their part to want to do a good job for your project. A trade association membership gets the specifier the ability to call in a third-party over-view of the project and/or installation that is neutral -- its not some upstart architect who doesn't know the area or customs. I've found that the further away from "home" I work, the more I rely on neutral standards organizations and trade organizations to provide some oversight. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 400 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 10:49 pm:    Trade organizations are very attuned to restraint of trade issues and if they have come concerns there is probably enough of a basis for a supplier to file a complaint. Of course you can defuse the situation by allowing the complaining supplier to do the work. Then how do you evaluate the supplier who does not belong to the trade organization? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 425 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 01:01 am:    In my woodwork specs for public work, I don't require them to be a member of WI, but if they are not, they still must conform to WI standards, inspections, and requirements. They don't have to be a WI shop in order to bid the work, but they must be able to produce the same quality of work as a WI shop. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1330 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 06:22 pm:    I would only require such a membership if it actually had some meaning for the quality, and I wouldn't have (and haven't had) any issues with doing so on a public project. Some organizations, of course, are open to anyone who merely pays the fee, which does not help improve quality. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 479 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 09:38 pm:    A few years back in my career, I paid a visit to a woodwork shop that wanted to bid our work in the company of a seasoned specifier who had worked for a decade in the woodworking industry. It was worth a semester's credit to see him looking over the machinery, the stored raw materials, the finished work ready to ship, and the storage area for completed work. They failed; the stored work was at atmospheric temperature and humidity, which would result in a lot of swelling followed by shrinkage once brought into our conditioned buildings. The lesson for me is that we can't possibly know as much as we need to know; by the time we do, arthritis has taken over our typing hands, and our memories are going. The alternative is referring to national standards and trade association quality programs for much of the work. Few of our colleagues carrying out CA work are equipped to evaluate whether such work meets quality standards; for that, we must require inspection such as the AWI's QCP. Restraint of trade? Once I hear of a successful suit in our industry, I'll worry about specifying association standards or memberships. It's akin to specifiers who say they can't tell the contractor what to do "because that's means and methods." Yes you can - if there's a good justification for it. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 405 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 12:49 am:    On private projects you can be as arbitrary as you want. On public projects where there are rules related to public bidding of the work then it is important to show that there is a good justification for the requirement. You also want objective criteria to evaluate the contractor. Requiring association membership is quesstionable but requiring compliance with the same criteria as required by an organization is acceptable if it makes a real diffference, if the criteria is objective, and if you are prepared to evaluate a non-member of the organization to determine whether they meet the criteria.