Archive through April 28, 2007

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Author Message Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 549 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:45 am:    Exploring going to a single paint spec for all projects, and using "green" paint products exclusively[whether for LEED projects or not] Concern here about performance of such products, particualrly in GMP work and work with exposure to severe and frequent high pressure water and steam, and chemical wash-downs [but not requiring high-performance coatings]. Any experiences or comments? Many thanks! Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 297 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:38 pm:    Ralph, I have been specifying as you describe for the past 8 years. My basis of design products are all LEED complying, low VOC, from Sherwin Williams with two other NATIONAL brands listed as prepapproved subject to compliance with requirements. I narrow focused around national brands because of their larger R&D budgets. There is a spirit of competition between the painting contractors who may choose to obtain their paint products from the manufacturers listed. I observed no backlash. Has been tested on public and private projects. Wayne PS March came like lion in the PNW. Snow, snow, snow. 60 vehicle pileup in I-90 east of Seattle. Shut down traffic east and west. Everett got dumped on. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:49 pm:    Thanks, Wayne! We S-W too, but just had questions from our GMP guys as to any glitches in performance that have been experienced. PS After hellish, 24 days under freezing, ice/snow storm per weekend February, March whimped in with a spectacular lightning display at 5AM today, and prospect of 1-1/2" rain, but with near 60 temp. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 01:53 pm:    Hi Guys, My office master is based on ICI Paint which is a national brand - other major brands and a couple of regional ones are also listed. Everything in CA has to comply with CARB (CA Air Resources Board) and SCAQMD (So Coast Air Quality Management District) Regulations, so we are already fairly "green". ICI has been really good about keeping up with LEED & "Green" requirements, especially here in So Cal, where the sun is shining and we expect temps around 60 today in Newport Beach. Sorry!! Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 457 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 03:05 pm:    I have had okay performance from "low" VOC paints, but wouldn't touch a bucket of 0 VOC paints if they gave it to us for free -- as for the general categories: I stopped using alkyd paints at least 15 years ago and use water based epoxy when a higher scrubbable finish is required. I use more water based high performance coatings now than I used to. the reality is that many of the health care clients I used to work with were on a 3-year repaint cycle anyway, so the durability of the paint on the walls wasn't that critical. here in Marina del Rey -- also sunny, up to about 60 degrees, but its been getting chilly at night -- I actually have had to wear a coat... Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 551 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 03:22 pm:    Thanks much, all. Most insightful information. However, I propose a new weather axiom [especailly for posters here], particularly for those who.............. never mind. It is, "If you can't say something bad, please don't..... And thanks here too. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 263 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 03:28 pm:    As I understand it, the only zero VOC paints are untinted. When you add color, you add VOCs (albeit very small amounts). I agree with Anne, get your "scrubable, chemical resisting" coatings out of paint and into high performance coatings. The traditional paint companies are producing more high performace products, and the high performance coatings folks are getting more paint-like products, so the line between the two is getting blurred. You can find high performance coatings at the high end of paint manufacturers and the low end of coatings manufacturers that are not budget breakers. I see great promise in the direct to metal (DTM) technologies. They seem to be fairly durable and low in VOC. Since everyone is doing weather, we are having a "Mark Twain: don't like it, wait five minutes" day in St. Louis. Thunderstorms, tornado warnings in the morning, bright sunshine and 50s right now, then below freezing tonight. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 552 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 03:52 pm:    Thanks, George for what you're sending up the river to us. Oh,and thanks too for the paint advice!!! Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 327 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 04:22 pm:    OT - I recently challenged Tremco regarding a description for one of their polyurethane traffic coatings (Vulkem 360 NF) that was labeled "low odor, No VOC" - after a brief discussion they agreed that it was mislabelled and it should have read "low odor, low VOC"...can't trust anybody these days. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 04:25 pm:    We have specified low-VOC paints for interior use for all projects within the last year or so, for both LEED and non-LEED projects. Another consideration for interior low-VOC paints is that these paints cannot be tinted deeptone colors. I understand that this has to do with the formulation of the tinting base for these paints (and also, the tinting pigments contain VOC's that may put the paints above the required VOC threshold, as noted in another post above). This may not be a problem if you are intending to use just lighter colors. But if you are planning to use deeptone colors, especially for, say, door or frames, that may be a problem for LEED projects. I do understand that "balancing" under LEED is possible, ie you are allowed to do a weighted average for VOC’s, so if you are far below the VOC limits (ie: less than 50 g/L for flat, less than 150 g/L for other paints), you may have some VOC “budget” to use for specialty paints. This is the harder way to achieve the point. The easiest is to have all paint be compliant with the LEED VOC limits. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 458 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 05:07 pm:    an additional note on 0 VOC products: I've had a number of failures with them and have heard of other failures on projects that I didn't work on. You need some vehicle to hold the pigment on the wall -- and in many cases, the 0 VOC products can be too chalky -- I had one job where they were rubbing off on people's clothing. there is a balancing thing permitted, but it seems to be allowed/enforced in a variety of ways. I would get an early reading from the USGBC if that is your intent and you need the LEED point. I've had projects where it was allowed, and some where it was not. Keep in mind that if that is what you're trying to do, the primers have MUCH lower VOC allowances than the top coats and you need to take that into consideration. Andrew Pace, CSI (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:24 pm:    Great topic. I've been lurking a bit on this site, but it's time for me to jump in. Most comments about 0 VOC paints are correct; they typically don't perform as well. A little VOC goes a long way to improve durability and ease of application. Most manufacturers eliminate the ethylene glycol in order to make thier paint close to zero VOC. However, the ingredients that are used in lieu (ammonia, butyl acete) are considered exempt from VOC regs, but still toxic to humans. Not very green, IMO. Degussa, one of the largest manufacturers of colorant for the paint industry, does make a 0 VOC colorant, but most paint companies won't use it due to the small price increase. AFM Safecoat from San Diego does use this, therefore, the deep and accent base colors are not any higher in VOC's than white. Plus, Safecoat has SCS Indoor Advantage Gold Certification making it LEED friendly. Hope this helps! John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 663 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 09:29 am:    I have nothing to add except that it's raining cats and dogs, very windy and 40 degrees this morning in Cambridge. My pant legs are wet. At least it should melt some of the ice still on the sidewalks. I do appreciate the insights on performance of coatings--some of you can expect a call from me to get more specifics. Karen L. Zaterman, CDT Senior Member Username: kittiz Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 07:41 am:    Quote: >>>here in Marina del Rey --<<< Anne! I thought you were in Pac NW? Well -- welcome to SoCal! I also live in MDR :-) BTW, there's a good OCCCSI meeting/tour late March you may want to check out. Rich mentioned the local regs... and I, too like ICI/Devoe. Vista Paint also provides good support. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 11:59 am:    Anne & Karen, Just so you both know - Dave Major has left ICI and his LA territory is currently being covered by Diana Trout - OCCCSI Member BTW Karen, could you please e-mail me your current contact info? Thanks rmatteo@tbparchitecture.com John Carter (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 08:41 am:    I believe that Frazee, Vista, Dunn Edwards, ICI and maybe other paint manufacturers have LEED compliant low-voc paints that are good quality. Basically if you meet the SCAQMD requirements in Southern California, you will also meet LEED requirements for paints. Zero VOC paints are not reliable.