DIFERENCE BETWEEN BUILDING MATERIALS ...

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Author Message Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 382 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 02:18 pm:    Our interior designers, PA's, and PM's (bless their little hearts) constantly confuse building materials with finish materials or colors. Color is KING. Some projects commence on the wrong foot when a glossy promitional book is issued with ad-hoc terminology and type designations. To late after that book gets circulated. Does anyone have a clear and concise explanation or difinition of the difference between building materials (glass, curtain wall, metal wall panels, etc) and finish materials (stone, tile, paint colors, wall coverings, etc). Thanks, Wayne Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 899 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 02:32 pm:    Finish Material: Any material applied, attached, or adhered to a building surface (wall, floor, or ceiling) for aesthetic purposes. Building Material: Any material not considered a Finish Material. Finish: Texture, color, pattern, or a combination thereof, applied to a Building Material or Finish Material. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 110 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 03:07 pm:    Devil's advocate: A material attached to a wall or ceiling for reducing sound reverberation is not a finish material? A material applied to the floor to control static is not a finish material? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 900 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 03:22 pm:    Good point, Bob. How's this: Finish Material: Any material applied, attached, or adhered to a building surface (wall, floor, or ceiling) to provide a finish or characteristic not inherent with the building surface. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 111 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 03:41 pm:    Still a devil's advocate: What about a suspended ceiling material? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 901 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 03:57 pm:    Come on, give me a break--I've created these, with little deliberation, between answering code questions and writing specs. :-) Besides, isn't a suspended ceiling "attached" to a building surface? ;-) Okay, Mr. Devil's Advocate, how about inserting this: ...to a building surface or structural assembly (wall, floor, or ceiling)... Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1160 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:06 pm:    How about using the word "substrate" instead of "surface"? To me, that immediately implies that it is not a finish, but something "sub" (under) a finish... Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 902 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:21 pm:    I agree. Here's what we have so far (with some other minor edits): Finish Material: Any material applied, attached, or adhered to a building substrate or structural assembly (wall, floor, or ceiling) to provide a finish or characteristic not inherent with the building substrate or structural assembly. Building Material: Any material not considered a Finish Material. Finish: A texture, color, pattern, or a combination thereof, applied to a Building Material or Finish Material. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 112 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:24 pm:    OK Ron, I will give you a break - you will note that I didn't propose any definitions!!!! I guess I was just trying to illustrate that is not easy to come up with such simple definitions. Too many materials/products have more than one function or characteristic. A partition built of decorative CMU may well have a dividing function as well as being a finish material. Which is the predominate function? The next question would interior versus exterior. What about exterior finish materials? They also should have some weathering capabilities just as many interior finish materials have to have some abuse resistant characteristics - are they a exterior weathering surface or are they an exterior apearance finish material? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1161 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:38 pm:    Well, the decorative CMU, if it remains as built, would not be a finish material or finish but would be a building material - and it would not come under the influence of the person choosing such materials or finishes. If however, it has an applied coating, that coating is a finish material. Materials like stone, however, can be either building materials or (usually as a veneer or thin product) a finish material. But the definition that Ron (with a little help from his friends) has developed, would hold up, since in that case, the stone would be attached to a substrate. Even if it's the same stone. (IMHO) John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1278 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:40 pm:    Finish: gypsum board, ceramic tile, vinyl tile, etc. A subset of building material. By extension, a finish schedule lists these products. Color: a pattern, texture or color. A color schedule indicates these aspects. Often included in the finish schedule. Key to me is the fact that as a specifier color is (generally) irrelevant, but the finish is not. For exampel, different ceramic products need different installation methods depending on product, substrate and location. Yet that never appears on the finish schedule. Really, I don't have a solution for this conundrum, which has been an issue for us as well. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 03:44 pm:    I am not quite sure that I understand the reason for the question (which may point to a more useful answer). I somehow sense that the question is related to a turf battle between architects and interior designers. I would have to say that finish materials are subsets of building materials. That is to say, all finish materials are building materials (like stone, carpet, tile, and even paint), but not all building materials are used as finish materials (although most might be at one time or another). The "finish" of a material (building or finish) is the surface treatment given to the exposed portion of the material. (Although finishes may be applied to concealed materials for durability.) + CMU is a bulding material that may be used as a finish material in certain applications that may have a factory finish (split face or resinous coating) applied or may have a field-applied finish. + Ceramic tile is a building material that is usually used as a finish material; however, some ceramic tiles (usually quarry tiles) may have a field-applied sealer finish. + Flush wood doors are building materials which are usually finish materials to which a finish (transparent, opaque, or plastic laminate) is factory applied, but which may also receive a field finish (usually paint) in lieu of the factory finish. + Glass is a building material used as a finish material which may receive any number of "functional" finishes (usually related to strength thermal performance) or "decorative" finishes. It's complicated and the correct answer may depend on the specific project and your office's practice. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 383 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 06:01 pm:    Peter, You have answered my question in a very clear and concise manner, as all the others did. Thanks. Peter is correct in that interiors and others set the wheels in motion without a proper thought process. To much water under the bridge to make it correct and coordinated by the time specs gets involved and the drawings are annotated. Not so much of a turf battle but more stupid is as stupid does. Garbage in, garbage out. Thanks, I can take it from here. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 384 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 06:05 pm:    Peter, Office practice in play is dictated by the first person who creates the initial lists. We in specs are trying to educate one person at a time. Most often we are late to the dance. Wayne Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:58 pm:    It's really a hopeless (but awfully fun - especially reading the attempts...heehee) task to try to define differences between things that inherently fall into multiple categories. Some materials/system/whatever just don't fit neatly in a single "box". But I deal with this day in and day out with my focus on specialized work -primarily restoration/rehab projects which almost always involve paint, protective coatings, waterproofing etc. So I'll straighten some parts of this out right now - paint is a finish, except when it's a protective coating and therefore not a finish...err, except when it it's the last thing applied, unless it needs texture for skid resistance, which makes it a "not a finish"...unless it's applied over a waterproof roofing membrane system - then it *is* a finish; well, except when it's also required for UV resistance, R values...then it's a "building material", right? But then is the membrane a substrate? And what's the substrate of a substrate...and what the heck is the *plural* of "substrate" - or is substrate THE plural and do we need to start using "substratum"? "Substrata"? Ah! Maybe the plural is "Substraterials"? All I know is I was an English major and everything I know is wrong! Glad to be of assistance. Please pass the Tylenol. Just don't let me play with sharp objects. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 12:34 pm:    Sorry; I would suggest that "finishes" are rarely simply a decorative "outside" material applied to a building material. "Finishes" selections must consider code requirements and durability as well as color and sheen. I mean, would even the most inexperienced inferior desecrator consider putting a flocked wall paper on the wall of an elementary school corridor simply because of texture and color considerations? And we gripe about architects... Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1078 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 04:09 pm:    Well, except some building materials have color and texture considerations -- CMU is a perfect example of that. The key, I always found, was that you really need two schedules: you need a materials schedule, and then you need a color schedule. The materials schedule becomes "fixed" far earlier in the process than the color schedule does. (and in long-term projects, such as a hospital with a 3 year construction time, the color schedule can remain fluid through much of the construction period). Generally, if "stone veneer" is selected as a wall finish, that will stick around, but the actual type of stone may change several times. I typically give the color schedule to the interiors people to fill out; the finish schedule, is done by the architectural staff. I do the coordinating between the two. (that's the theory). John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1283 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 09:06 am:    Anne has it right, IMHO. We can parse out the definition in terms of materials, or as a specifier sees it all we want. But the real issue here is one of production--how documents are put together, what information is 'controlled' by whom, etc. That, to me, is why the distinction matters. The color selections are made by the interiors teams, and as Anne points out, often very late in the design and construction process. Finishes, in terms of materials, are made sometimes by int. designers and sometimes by the architect, or both. And they're earlier in the process.