| Author |
Message |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 01:21 pm: |    |
How can I get product reps to be involved with the project during construction? I want the reps to inspect the job and ensure the installation is in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and approval. |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 01:35 pm: | |
Specify the requirement and enforce it.
Submittals, QA/C Submittals, Manufacturers' Field Reports
Field Quality Control, Manufacturers' Field Services |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 01:38 pm: | |
I agree with Bob. I do this, but for a fairly limited number of systems. Usually I ask reps beforehand if this is a service they can provide. |
Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods
Post Number: 343
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 01:50 pm: | |
These days, many companies have purged their local reps, and have scaled back to only "regional representatives" that cover large territories, thus making it far more difficult to service individual projects.
However, there are still quite a few knowledgeable and helpful product reps who are eager to help. I have had many such visits with companies such as Ardex, BASF, Custom Building Products, Parex, Stego, Tremco, Grace, Assa Abloy, IR, Tnemec, all the paint companies, etc...
It is very helpful to have established relationships with your local reps, through lunch-n-learn opportunities, trade shows, and CSI chapter meetings. They more involved they are, the more likely they will be to the right person to help you out.
I treasure these relationships. They exponentially increase my "apparent" knowledge. |
wyancey (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 02:19 pm: | |
David,
Here I go again as unregistered.
For a recent reroofing project I included the following in Part 3 under Field Quality Control. We asked the manufacturer to state when they wanted to be insite to observe. The following is their response. Item B.3 may appear somewhat ambiguous. The rep was not onsite for 10 consecutive days but at regular intervals during the first 10 days of the tear-off and reroofing to observe the installation of all products as they occured.
B. Manufacturer's Field Service: Engage a factory-authorized service representative to inspect assemblies and equipment installations, including connections during the course of the re-roofing work to satisfy manufacturer's warranty requirements. Recommended intervals include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. One visit – Preconstruction meeting to determine the scope of technical support appropriate.
2. One visit – Flute filler / cover board mock-up meeting with sign off to proceed.
3. On call for ten days of initial site support during the installation of each specific element.
a. Flute filler.
b. Coverboard.
c. Air/vapor barrier.
d. Insulation.
e. TPO membrane.
f. Connection of TPO membrane to existing PVC membrane.
g. Connection of TPO membrane to existing roof drain.
4. Weekly site meetings by the representative or [manufacturers name here] technical team.
5. One interim inspection visit per month.
6. One final inspection.
This is important when long warranty periods are required. I my case, 30 years.
Wayne Yancey CCS(1990)
Associate |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 05:31 pm: | |
There is a conflict of interest having a product rep do the inspections/QA. The product rep has to walk a fine line. If they push the contractor and upset the contractor, the contractor may never again buy the reps products. This seems to be true with paint reps and is why I sometimes require independent 3rd party inspections. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 312
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 05:49 pm: | |
On the one hand there may be a conflict of interest but if the product rep signs off on the installation it will be difficult for the manufacturer to claim that the product was not installed in accordance with their recommendations.
If you are concerned about a conflict of interest they suggest that the owner hire a special inspector in addition.
If the architect is seen as selecting the product I would believe that the product rep would be more interested in keeping the architect happy.
No matter what we do there will be conflicts. We just need to decide which ones we worry about. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 364
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 06:40 pm: | |
The project also has independent 3rd party inspection. The roofing system manufacturer is there to protect against compromising the warranty and provide onsite training to the roofing contractors technicians who are dummer than a sack of hammers.
The Contractor and/or painting subcontractor buys the products specified until such time that a subtitution is approved by AofR and Owner. Manu rep field quality control is not grounds for a substitution. I couldn't give 2/3 of a @#$%-all if the GC and painting subcontractor never use the specified product again. |
J. Peter Jordan, CSI, CCS, AIA, LEED AP (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:17 am: | |
This varies widely, but most are interested simply because they want to sell more product and they know they can't if the installation does not go well.
There are other instances where the manufacturer will be on the hook for substantial exposure under the required warranty. Reps have been thrown off the job by the Contractor because they had a problem with the installation (or the conditions under which the installation was to be performed).
This happens most often with stuff having to do with water infiltration issues (roofing, waterproofing, elastomeric coating, etc.) and some finishing stuff. You really are not going to get a drywall rep out to look at drywall installation. |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:59 am: | |
Wayne has it right -- you have to be specific about the time committment. You can't just have it open ended, because no rep could do that. Either state a number of specific inspections, or a percentage of time; or some other measurable number. The product rep has to earn a living too. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 04:42 pm: | |
Why should we care about the rep making a living or not? Our obligation it to the project and giving the Owner the best quality project. Therefore we want the rep to be as active on the job as required. He or she can live in the job shack for all I care. I just want the job done correctly.
I am just tired of product reps that, once they make a sale, are never heard from again. |
Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods
Post Number: 347
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 05:06 pm: | |
"Why should we care about the rep making a living or not?"
Have you ever worked with a good set of tools? Ask any mechanic or carpenter if tools are important. Why should we care? so that we'll have these tools handy in the future! |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 05:15 pm: | |
Agreed. I use my good reps all the time. They somehow find a way to scratch out a living, answer my questions promptly and do site inspections.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Do you supposed any product rep out there ever worried if an architect could making a living? After all it would be a shame for a rep to establish a good relationship with an architect only to have the firm go bankrupt or the architect get fired and go into another line of business. |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 88
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 05:48 pm: | |
Come'on David - you having a bad hair day????
A good project usually results from the work of a good project team, and I mean the total team, not just the design team. Project team members usually perform well when their contributions are recognized and when they are properly compensated for their efforts. If you don't have some empathy for your fellow team members and their situation, then you are not being a very good team member. Product reps have a life and their problems just like we all do. If your attitude is that you could care less about them, the attitude will probably be returned in kind. That project or future projects will suffer for it.
If you want certain product reps to monitor the installation of their products in the field, just specify the requirement and enforce it - pretty simple.
In terms of shoe on the other foot, I am quite sure there are quite a few architectural people out there who have gotten a position with another firm based on the recommendations of a product rep - not an unusual occurence.
The design/construction industry is really a pretty small world - you never know when the person you met in one situation will come back into your life in a totally different position. Those who have been around awhile know it's best to treat everyone you deal with decently and with some respect, because you never know when and how you might be dealing with them in the future or how they might be the help you need in the future. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1131
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 06:07 pm: | |
Robert,
Agreed. Team members work towards the success of a project.
Not inspecting products' installation is not being a team player.
Suggesting bogus "unequal" substitution requests is not being a team player.
Recommending a product in an application where the product does not belong is not a being a team player.
Trash talking the competitor to get them out of the specification is not being a team player.
Shall I go on?
I would love to be a team player but the question is what team is the other guy on? |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 89
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 08:14 pm: | |
So are you saying all product reps do the above? Your derogatory posting above refers to "any product rep," not just bad product reps.
Product reps could come up with a similar list of things where they are treated badly by some A/Es, but that is not a reason to chacterize all A/Es as in the same pot. We can all come up with a list of bad practices we see by some for all of the various team members.
Unfortunately, there are people out there in all the different positions of the industry who do not treat others the way they should. There are ways to deal with that - in terms of product reps that would include what products you specify etc. You do what you can to work on future projects with those who fulfill their project team role well. I think almost all specifiers have a "good list" and a "bad list" of product reps. You continue to go back to the good ones and you avoid the others whenever you can.
In some cases you have a voice in who your project team members, and others you do not. I gather from your history of postings, that your firm does a lot of public bid work where you probably don't have much voice in who is on the construction team. That problem comes with that territory and is something that you have to live with and do what you can to protect the owner and the project.
"Not inspecting products' installation is not being a team player." I would disagree with this statement. I don't think inspecting products' installation is a normal responsibility of all product reps for all products. It can certainly be a specified requirement for certain products. It is certainly a responsibility in cases where there has been a problem with the installation to help determine the cause and the remedy.
Just trash talking other project team members does not do anything productive in building good project teams. You are better off continuing to be a good team member so that other good team members will want to work with you in the future and rewarding other good team membrs in anyway you are able within the rules. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 09:33 pm: | |
Reread my post. Where do I say that all product reps do the items I am listed?
I am just saying that to be a good team player everyone has to pull the one rope from the same side. Team players want the project to succeed, not just sell their products. Heck anyone can sell products. It takes a true professional to know his products (and his competitors) and to assist the design professionals for the best possible outcome.
Yes I do work for a firm that does mostly public work. Many of our clients have a preferred products list or building standards. Many times decent products are listed as unacceptable. I can only imagine that the owner had an issue with poor installation and therefore all future projects were prohibited to use this product.
I had an instance not to long ago where the product rep antagonized the design team so much that the Owner paid to have the product removed from the project, paid extra to have the competitor's product installed, told the Architect and Owner's representative to never specify that product again on the school districts projects. That is not being a team player. That is losing the battle and the war. We have consequently made an office policy to change our design and not use those products either the original one OR the competitors. It's just not worth the hassle.
So not only can a bad rep hurt his(or her) own business, but they can also hurt the whole industry of products. Remember EIFS? I rest my case. |
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