Design of a "chilled" burger room...

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 323 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:42 pm:    I have a client who wants a chilled burger room within a restaurant. The room will be kept at 55 degrees and have a glass wall so patrons can, um, watch their meat being ground as they eat their hamburgers (I don’t design the stuff, I just spec it). Design temperature of the restaurant is 72 degrees. Here’s my questions – would you include a vapor barrier in the walls of the burger room? Does anyone know of an interior partition system that can accommodate insulated glass with butt joints? Any other design issues anyone can think of? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 872 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:55 pm:    What is the proposed humidity level of the restaurant? Maybe the designer can replicate the design used by grocery stores for their butcher areas. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 324 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:59 pm:    Per mechanical: The wet bulb temperature at 72 F/50% RH (the design temperature/humidity for the room) is 60 F. Figuring worst case with safety factor if the humidity level in the space were to rise to 60%, the wet bulb temperature would be 63 F. Any ideas how butcher areas are designed??? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 873 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:20 pm:    Not a clue. Shouldn't the designer be making those inquiries? You just need to specify the materials in the assembly once they determine what is included in the assembly. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 353 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:20 pm:    With a cleaver. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 439 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:51 pm:    I think you can butt glaze insulated glazing units; it just will be ugly. Remind you client that the edge of an insulated glazing unit has 1/4- to 3/8-inch of sealant and spacer that will be seen in addition to the sealant joint itself. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 548 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 06:09 pm:    Hence the term "butt ugly", I would suppose. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 451 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 05:51 pm:    Hmmm ... watching butchers at work while eating burgers. Coming soon ... hospitals with first floor glazed ORs so passersby can see the latest surgical techniques. Eligible for a LEED daylighting credit, too! Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 253 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2010 - 06:49 pm:    Yes, and when I first saw this discussion I thought of the "controlled temperature rooms" we often specify for our hospital work. I thought of posting that they ought to use one of the insulated wall and ceiling modular panels systems to form the back and side walls of the "chilled burger room". Unfortunately, the most common use for these rooms in a hospital is in the morgue. Ellis C. Whitby, AIA, PE, CSI, LEED® AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 66 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 08:04 am:    I guess one could say that a meat locker is a morgue for livestock. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1211 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 08:39 am:    Just a thought about the original question--- in lieu of a constructed room, would it be possible to utilize a pre-fabbed, self-contained cooler unit ["walk-in" box] like in grocery stores and meat markets. I am sure the manufacturers [like Bally] have the capacity to install vision panels that work with their units and more than likely up to sizes as you note. Also, how about low-temperature panel construction to make the whole room? This method is used to make larger "boxes" in processing plants] and have floor, wall and ceiling panels [with vision panels] John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1230 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 11:40 am:    I think that what you really need is an air barrier more than a vapor retarder. Each uniquely-conditioned environment is best kept isolated from others. Remember that far more moisture is transported by air movement than by diffusion through materials. Secondly, I'd look at potential for condensation forming on surfaces. Not only ugly, but could create sanitation issues. Do an analysis, or use thermally broken frames and insulating glass if that's not feasible. Way down on my list is concern about moisture vapor diffusion. The environments are not so different, and I'd bet the partial pressures for moisture vapor in and out of this room are pretty similar.