Level 4 vs. Level 5 finish

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 308 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 01:56 pm:    If an architect is looking for a smooth finish, but doesn't want to pay for Level 5, can they simply paint over a Level 4 finish? Essentially, the only difference is the skim coat, which provides the ultra smooth finish often associated w/ a Level 5 finish, correct? In this case, they want smooth, but it doesn't need to be "high-end" smooth. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 850 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:09 pm:    That is correct. You can paint a level 4 finish. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1167 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:16 pm:    Just an idea, but do you specify the primer-surfacer that USG [perhaps others] has? [USG Sheetrock Brand “Tuff-Hide” primer-surfacer]. Found this is a help in getting better sanding [required of drywall people installing the p-s] and to the finish painting system. This is not a substitute for the paint system primer! Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 323 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:26 pm:    I second Ralph's recommendation. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 376 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:28 pm:    Is that material applied by the gyp board installer or by the painter? Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1168 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:38 pm:    We place it in the Gyp Assemblies Section, so the drywall people must do it. In that way, there is at least an innuendo that sanding had better be good so their own p-s works out well. i.e., we lean toward single responsibility! Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 349 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 02:59 pm:    What a Level 5 finish really does is to even out the porosity between the paper face of the gypsum board panels and the areas of joint compound from taping and spotting of fastener heads, so that paint is absorbed more evenly into the surface. The "skim coat" used in Level 5 is joint compound, applied with wide taping knives, and then immediately cut off. It just leaves a film that fills imperfections in the joint work and smooths the paper texture. There is no build-up of thickness of the material as there is with veneer plaster. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 309 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 03:44 pm:    Ralph - wouldn't tuff-hide be the "skim coat" component of a Level 5 finish? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1021 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 03:45 pm:    In the back of my brain there is a tickle and it is telling me that there is a manufacturer of gypsum board that states it provides the equivalent of a Level 5 finish without additional primer/work. But I can't find the reference nor can I remember. Perhaps someone here can? Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1169 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 03:49 pm:    Robin-- yes! But some advantages regarding application, etc. See http://www.usg.de/index.php?id=1050 Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 04:05 pm:    Lafarge has a pre-skim-coated product,Rapid Deco Level 5. Here's the link to the product data sheet: http://www.lafargenorthamerica.com/wps/wcm/resources/file/eb93130d93138eb/RD_DW_TypeX_Submittal_final.pdf. I've never used it or heard any reviews. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1022 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 04:08 pm:    Thank you for my sanity. That's the one I've seen advertised. Never used it either, but it sounds good...and we all know what that means. Gerard Sanchis Senior Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 06:27 pm:    Don't buy the GC or sub's claim that a Level 4 with a high solids primer is the equivalent of a Level 5. It isn't. There is no equivalent to a Level 5, except plaster veneer on a plaster board. Don't forget to ask for a painted mockup where you get a glancing light condition. Gerard Sanchis Senior Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 06:29 pm:    I'm looking for a clear, intumescent coating on wood for exterior conditions. Can anyone help? Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 941 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 12:45 pm:    I agree with Gerard's second to last comment. I had a client who to save money, switched to Level 4 finish, and could clearly tell the difference between that and the level 5. In their words "the $2000 saved wasn't worth it." depends a lot on the lighting conditions, and how discerning the eye is of both the client and the architect. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1191 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:37 am:    I agree that saving money here is a risky bet. Not much to save for a potentially much better apperaance. You may want to go one step further. We've been told that the cost of veneer plaster is only slightly more than Level 5. Keep in mind that veneer plaster can be done in one shot after the rock is hung. Level 5 finish requires the taper to come back multiple times. This may not hold true in all markets, as there are still a reasonable number of capbale plasterers here. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 428 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 10:16 pm:    There are few markets where skilled plasterers can provide a good veneer plaster. But where you can obtain it, it is a beautiful finish. Allow time in the schedule for application and cure. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 411 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 11:13 am:    It probably depends on the type of veneer plaster, but my recollection is that it is a two-coat system after you hang the base board and prepare it for the finish. It demands good craftsmanship from the plasterer and varies in cost considerably depending on local familiarity with the system. I first ran into it when I worked in Georgia and then specified it often in Hawaii. I have only seen it on two jobs in the Houston area in the last 12 years. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1193 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 11:54 am:    There are both two-coat and one-coat veneer plaster systems. One coat is more common here. Veneer plaster base is an essential part of the system. Joint prep is simply mesh tape applied just prior to plastering. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 303 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 02:00 pm:    Gerard: See Quantum for your question regarding the clear intumescent exterior wood coating ... there's one listed about half-way down the page. http://www.quantumchemical.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=58 Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS