Getting Drawings

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Author Message J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 398 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 10:45 am:    Recently, I have been having trouble getting Drawings to use when I generate specifications. The root cause seems to be Owners who are refusing to pay for more than the bare bones of reproduction. I have recently been told that I will be allowed to borrow the Architect's set over the weekend, but I must return it on Tuesday. I know the costs of reproduction are high, and I try and keep it reasonable. I only want half-size sets and only the architectural (I don't do specs on the other stuff), and I will work from 11 x 17, but coordination is very difficult if I don't have Drawings to look at. And... As much as I am a fan of paperless documentation, I find using .pdfs to look at a drawing sheet to be very difficult. Is anyone else having this problem? Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 344 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 10:54 am:    Yes, but we have always been able to get drawings. We include the following wording in all of our proposals. "[architect name] will furnish us half-size paper copies of drawings at no charge, for [Schematic Design,] [Design Development,] Construction Document progress printings, for-bid issue, and for-construction issue. We do not have CADD capability and are not in a position to print drawings." Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 836 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:10 am:    I have the same problem, even though I have a requirement similar to Dave's in my proposal. What I have considered is taking the PDFs they give me, send them to the printer, and bill the client as a reimbursable expense; or, add $100 to $200 per design submittal to my proposal for printing (whether I get printed documents or not) just to cover the possibility. I agree, also, that I cannot work from PDFs when writing specifications. Until they make an inexpensive E-size monitor, I want prints. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 811 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:17 am:    ahhh, I knew there was another benefit to being an internal specifier! I even get full size drawings. But seriously, if you are doing hardware, how do you really work off half size? I would go blind! William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 377 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:24 am:    OMG Peter that is just ludicrous. Printing sets costs less money then in the past because xerography is so much faster and of higher quality. You need to push back a little. Without drawings you cannot complete your job! In fact I have bugged the teams about how many intermediate sets they print. M Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 301 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:33 am:    I have a similar clause in my proposal, but haven't ever had to really push the matter. I find that most of my clients will refer me to their ftp site and I follow up with an email stating, "Please send me a 1/2 size set of architectural dwgs". If they ask if PDF's are ok, I just reply, "no, i need the hard copy" and I have never had anyone refuse. For schematic or design phases on smaller projects, I usually settle for PDF's and I have a 11 x 17 printer at my office. There usually isn't alot of detail on those dwgs, so the 11 x 17 works fine. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:35 am:    You guys get drawings? Next you'll be telling us there are keynotes on these alleged drawings. Then you’ll expect us to believe that you have architects that condescend to be available to answer questions about their projects. Jo Drummond Senior Member Username: jo_drummond_fcsi Post Number: 41 Registered: 06-2007 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 02:05 pm:    My contract says half size paper copies, and that the Architect is responsible for giving me all the information I need to prepare the specs. As I'm working I give them lists of what I need, and caution them that I will be delayed if I don't get the information by a certain time. It usually works. I've never had a client complain that I can't have drawings because they don't have a printing budget. That's a new one! I think I would reply something like: if I can't have drawings, you can't have specs. John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 76 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 02:08 pm:    Like William I am also "in-house". For most projects I can obtain drawings by plotting what I need, say for hardware scheduling. While I might have a paper copy for reference it’s often outdated within a few days, so I also keep up with the project design on-line as it evolves. I’m also a step or two closer to the client-design professional agreements than many of you, and there is a very noticeable trend by clients to limit, cap or otherwise disallow reimbursable expenses of any type and regardless of the validity of the particular expense. We’ve had to become very cognizant of identifying and managing these types of costs, and chances are your design professional clients are responding to similar pressures. John T. McGrann, Jr., AIA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 399 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 04:02 pm:    This is a relatively recent development. One firm I work for would tell their clients to budget 12 to 14% of the gross fee for reimbursible reproduction costs so I know that it can get expensive. An owner I know of recently decided in the middle of the project to do LEED certification. They paid for it by taking it from the reproduction budget. I do believe that the owners are paying for the copies they use (as if they ever look at anything), but we seem to be moving to an environment where everyone pays for the copies they make for their use. I did push back and will get 11 by 17s (not quite half size, but good enough). Since I normally don't get involved with hardware, I don't have William's issues; I do, however, have a big magnifying glass. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 06:10 pm:    I am truly amazed by the responses on this thread. I expected that there would be much more response praising digital drawings. I don't like hard copy drawings and don't want them as long as I get them in <pdf> format. Of course, my practice has changed over the last 10 years. My "office" is now a mobile one since I travel so much. I very seldom need a hard copy of anything. Most mfrs. data is now on the web. Telephone calls and emails usually get fast results if you can get to the right people. As for <pdf> drawings, I use the Bluebeam PDF Revu which will give me maximum magnification. Better yet I can flag or add notes/questions/comments directly on the drawings and send them back to the architect, even scale dimensions. There are many other good features on the program. Hard copy drawings are as bulky as the old Sweet's catalogs. Since 1/2 my year is spent in the near-wilderness areas of Montana, many deliveries don't reach me until the 2nd day. In nearly 40 years as a specifier, I have had only one "client" say they would give me the drawings after I had written the spex. I walked; told him to call Dave Metzger. <g> Bob Johnson is now on a mountaintop in NM, I believe. Bob, do you still use hard copies? "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 07:31 pm:    OK Ron, no fair bringing the old man on the mountaintop in on this - and I was just about ready to retire for the day to watch the winter olympics. None of my clients are local. My requirements for an office: High speed internet connection and FedEx can find your door. I have both here at 7000 feet elevation in the mountains just east of Albuquerque - sort of best of both worlds - on 1/2 acre full of pinon and ponderosa trees with some beautiful views and yet only 15 minutes to civilization down in town. I am like several others above, I like and require half-size hard copy drawings. I have no trouble getting them from my clients; in fact they sometimes provide me with too many drawings that I don't really need. I would be like Jo, no drawings, no specs. Admittedly I am also at the stage of my career that I am not particularly worried if I loose a client that doesnn't provide me the required information in a useable form and a timely fashion, but that also has never happened. Fortunately I also have a recyling service that comes once a week for drawings I no longer need. I do not have drawing printing capabilities nor do I have super sized screens to view drawings. I can deal with PDF drawings but it is a pain to move from one to another and to magnify them to make details and notes readable. I certainly accept them for last minute new and revised drawings, but not for the the set that I start the spec from. If I was just starting or had many years in front of me as a spec consultant, I would probably do more investigation and maybe purchase some other hardware/software to be able to better deal with electronic drawings. Old-fashioned I guess, but that is the best way for me to provide my clients a good service. I don't think the question of the form of drawings has anything to do with all the other electronic resources we have available. I have not had a hard copy library of mfgr info since I re-entered the consulting business 7 years ago. I generally provide website links when providing the client product info and they generally do the same in providing me product info although I do get some scanned PDF's too. I also only provide my clients electronic files. How and in what form they distribute the specifications is in their court. The great majority of my client communications are by email with various types of attachments - avoids the frustration of connecting by phone especially since I am usually a couple of time zones away and the frustrations of faxes. There are obviously some telephone conversations for some subjects, but I still request or provide an email to document the decisions made. My historic email documents the project spec preparation process. I have several project manager clients I have never met face to face but still consider them my friends based on working together on multiple projects. They call up once in awhile just to talk and see how things are going. I consider it a real blessing to be able to live where and how I want, and still be able to provide consulting services to firms across the country, generally for people I have know for many years in various capacities. The joys of today's communication world! Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 07:36 pm:    In looking at the digital vs paper debate it needs to be recognized that individuals react physiologically differently to these two types of media. This will have an impact on your ability to see things and synthesize information. It also needs to be appreciated that the differences between individuals is large enough that even when there is a statistical preference for one mode there will be individuals who will prefer the other mode. Thus for the digital proponents to say every body should only use digital is not only a denial of the science but it reflects an insensitivity. Part of the argument is that the young and the early adapters of technology are different. In reality the physiology of these classes of individuals is no different. What is different is that familiar with the technology can help to mask the physiological differences. Digital modes may be very useful if you are searching for a particular fact but will be difficult if you are trying to trying to coordinate information on different sheets. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 457 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 08:34 pm:    Won't the BIM tell you what has to be specified? "Drawings? I don' gots to show you no stinkin' drawings." And besides, the most interesting information is contained in details and notes on the drawings that get finished the afternoon before you must complete the set for delivery the next morning. (What is all the fuss about? Don't your boilerplate specs cover all the possible conditions anyway?) Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 11:47 am:    This discussion about drawings brings up a somewhat related topic. I am an "in-house" specifier and do not have trouble getting drawings or readiily being able to talk to the team members to receive verbal info. For those of you who may primarily receive one set of drawings, at what stage of CD development do you receive them. I frequently find that even though I have drawings, I need to rely greatly on my intuition or verbal questions and answers because the info is not on the drawings yet or some of the detail sheets have been borrowed from a previous project or "standards" and has not been tweaked for the project being developed. Although we don't usually start the specs this early, I was just working on a project where they wanted substantial spec development with a 50% CD review issue - this was too early to have the drawings be of much benefit. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 378 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:56 am:    John, you've been working too hard, take a happy pill, close your eyes and go to your special place and think nice thoughts about puppies for at least 1/2 hour. P.S. could SCIP think about awards for online sarcasm and irony, we have plenty of raw talent out there and I'm sure Colin could set up voting. as to Dale's comments - I must rely on "intuition or verbal questions and answers" because there is just no way they can get it all drawn before the final spec is due. By 50% CD's, systems should all be selected for exterior walls and structure. I would expect that interiors would still be up in the air, BUT basic types should have been cooked - carpet tile vs broadloom, APC or Gyp ceilings - or both etc. Getting a good 50% CD spec is never the problem for me, it's getting the last 50% out of designers who WILL NOT MAKE DECISIONS. M Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 58 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 11:21 am:    I am very happy to have fewer Drawings (especially bed sheet sizes) to recycle everyday. Back in the day, we had couriers coming all day long; we were buried. On small to mid size projects, I can usually manage with PDF Drawings; we have 24 inch screens. That said, I often draft specifications without drawings, sometimes for 80% CDs. The same Architects who can't answer questions about the wall assembly are the ones who don't send Drawings. My favorite are the Architects who say, didn't you see the Drawings that we posted to the FTP site? Like I'm an FTP mind reader and can guess usernames and passwords by ESP. Recently I had an Architect change the wall assembly four times in two days (90% CD phase). I thought this was a good time to point out that I had never seen Drawings for her project and perhaps she could send some, especially with wall sections. She answered that she had already sent 65% Drawings, four months ago, and that ought to be enough for me. Once again, my best clients are the ones who let me actually help the process. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 400 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 11:30 am:    One of the services that most of my clients find most valuable is quality control which is, as most of you know, a by-product of the process of developing the specifications. I have found that some clients do resent having me suggest alternative products or point out that the stuff on A-3.01 doesn't match the stuff on A-4.20. These clients are the ones that I do have a lot of problems getting drawings from or any other information for that matter. They usually argue about the size of the fee and don't repeat. Others really appreciate my input. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:46 pm:    Mark: It is my experience that it takes me 50% of my time to get to 90% and the other 50% to get to 100%. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:48 pm:    Marc: Sorry about the misspelling of your name. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 935 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 02:39 pm:    I would go the sneaky route Peter, and just put in a couple of hundred dollars for reproduction costs and call it something else. (I used to put in an upcharge for difficult clients, same way). if you end up with a client who sends you drawings when you need them, then you can give them a "good client discount" for the next job. if you get a client who claims poverty, get the drawings printed and delivered yourself. the good clients will love the "discount"; the bad clients are bad clients anyway. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 219 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 03:03 pm:    I work entirely in-house, so I do not have the problem of not getting any drawings at all. Instead, my problem is design teams that keep putting off giving me drawings until they update something. It might be a big change in terms of design or massing, but usually will have zero impact on the specs. I mean, reducing the curtainwall mullions from 4 foot on center to 3 foot 6 inches might be a critical turning point in your career, but I think of your building as the "L" shaped one with the grassy roof. Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Monday, February 22, 2010 - 03:12 pm:    In line with Anne's comments, a good thing for a an independent consultant to do is to stop once a year to evaluate the previsous year looking for lessons learned and how to incorporate corrections for the coming year. Another good activity for that time is to evaluate all of your clients - who is cooperative, who provides requested information on a timely basis, who pays on timely basis, who is concerned about producing superior documents, who do you feel good working with, etc. Rank clients from top to bottom. Make the top clients your top priority to provide them your best service in the future - extend extra effort to meet their needs in terms of scheduling and appropriate fee levels. Don't be super worried about how you are able to serve the lowest ranked clients - they are lowest on your piority list. If you refuse a project and they ask why, give them an honest answer. The goal is to have more higher ranked clients. The more higher ranked clients you have, the better you will feel about your professional life. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 937 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 03:38 pm:    well, and like all the other things that will change because of BIM, the availability of information will as well. When the contractor uses the 40% or 50% documents (drawings and specs) for hard bids... and then every deviation between the 50% and the 100% is a cost upcharge, folks start making decisions early and sticking to them. when younger project managers get thrown under the bus because the designer is too busy waiting for the muse, the designers start to get in line -- or finding their bonuses greatly reduced. Marc's correct -- the interior products (not the interior configuration) don't matter all that much for these efforts, but all the architecture stuff sure does... Gerard Sanchis Intermediate Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 08:14 pm:    I see that the original question got side-tracked. I work primarily on a HD 42-inch TV monitor. It allows me to view full size drawings at 75% magnification and to open several windows on one screen if I want to; I also have a 24-inch monitor next to the large screen where Outlook remains open all the time. I went this route because we have difficulty getting hard copies of the drawings; even when we do, they’re outdated the day after printing. We can get PDF copies from our client at a day’s notice. It takes a little while to get used to making a take-off on screen, but it’s as fast now as doing it on paper.