Field flood testing standing seam met...

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 290 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 11:31 am:    Anyone have any spec language for this? It is sloped at 3:12 and the owner (a public agency) is insisting on field flood test. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 827 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 11:38 am:    You've got to be kidding! Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 292 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 11:56 am:    I know, I know. Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department at work. They apparently insisted on it on another project in the field and now they want some "real" spec language to tell the Contractor how to do it. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 373 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:01 pm:    I love it! the answer is copy the language from the waterproofing section and reference the ASTM. ASTM D5957 - Standard Guide for Flood Testing Horizontal Waterproofing Installations (2005). 3.x FIELD QUALITY CONTROL A. Owner will provide testing services in accordance with Section 014000 - Quality Requirements. Contractor shall provide temporary construction and materials for testing. B. On completion of horizontal membrane installation, dam installation area in preparation for flood testing. C. Flood to minimum depth of 2 inch with clean water. After 24 hours, inspect for leaks. D. If leaking is found, remove water, repair leaking areas with new waterproofing materials as directed by Architect; repeat flood test. Repair damage to building. E. When area is proven watertight, drain water and remove dam. OK there is the language but how do you flood test a 3/12 roof - you don't, you could spray water on it for a day with a fire hose? no ASTM but it could be fun - and educational. M Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 828 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:23 pm:    Let's see, build two damns 12-inches horizontally apart. One damn at 6-inches high on the low end and another damn at 3-inches high on the high end (also enclosing the ends if no parapet), fill with water so that the high end has at least 2 inches of water. Repeat for each horizontal foot of roof area. -or- Build two damns, one at the eave and one at the ridge (including the ends if no parapets. The eave damn shall be at least 3 inches higher than the ridge. The ridge damn shall be 3-inches high. Fill with water so that there is at least 2 inches of water at ridge. ---------------- If the above doesn't it make them realize this is ridiculous, then just state the requirement as Marc provided and leave it up to the contractor to determine how to conduct the test. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 293 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:26 pm:    I just like to keep ya'all on your toes and help us keep perspective on how ridiculous some of our client requests can be. I think they did spray water with a fire hose on the previous one and then ran inside to see if there were leaks. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 829 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:33 pm:    Then that's not a flood test and it shouldn't specified as such. Maybe someone can provide language for a water spray test. Personally, I've never ben required to do this for a sloped roof. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 01:22 pm:    Even if it were feasible to "flood test" a standing-seam roof, it most assuredly would leak. This is a water-shedding design, not intended to be leak-free under standing water. All a flood test could be expected to accomplish is to thoroughly soak the insulation & everything else beneath the roof surface. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 02:10 pm:    If your concern has to do with leaking you are interested in the joints. I does no good to flood the middle of a piece of sheet metal. Would the water have to be above the standing seam. Depending on the wind loads the roof design live load could be no more than 20 psf which would roughly correspond to an average water depth of 4 inches. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:57 pm:    It will probably leak as soon as the water reaches the lock. Standing seam roofs are not waterproofing. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 382 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 03:52 pm:    A roof with a 3/12 slope is not a low-slope roof and should not be expected to "hold" water. Such roofs maintain their integrity by shedding water (as noted above). There is no valid test because (1) it really isn't supposed to be waterproof and (2) if the roof is of any length (like over 4 feet), you will have far more water on it than the structure is capable of carrying. If the roof is 36 feet long, it should have 9 feet of water over the lowest part of the roof. Tell your structural engineer that you need your roof to hold 9 feet of water for 24 hours. Sometimes, the best service you can do for a client is to tell them no. On the other hand, if they insist on flood testing, you should not be using a "steep" roofing system. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 326 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 04:41 pm:    Robin: As noted above, standing seam sheet metal roof systems are not design nor intended to be waterproof but rather to shed water from the roof surface. There are exceptions of course when the original intent (as reflected in the contract documents) call for a waterproof system. A waterproof standing seam sheet metal system would consist of either (1) a fully sealed (continuously sealed at each interconnecting rib and at end overlaps, if any) or (2) a system that has a substrate that is completely covered with a waterproof membrane (usually a peel-n-stick type product which are usually thick and self-sealing around any penetrating fasteners). Waterproof proof systems would be used in low-slope (below 3:12) applications, in barrel vault applications where slopes go from 0:12 to 6:12 or higher slopes in a short distance, and in selected areas such as valleys, crickets, and around penetrations. Where the project is located has a major impact on the design choices. The majority of applications do not need a waterproof system but if the project is in high-snow and high-wind areas a waterproof system is definitely to be considered. Like so many other construction methodologies, the technology for sheet metal roofing has advanced. Gone are the days when rosin paper or asphalt felts are recommended by the sheet metal manufacturer’s. Many new underlaying products (all water-resistant and some high-temperature) have been designed for use under sheet metal and there are now a wide range of new finishes on the metal. In regard to testing, sprinklers are good but a low-pressure fire hose would be better. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 12:03 pm:    As a manufacturer of metal roof systems, I concur with the conclusion that a standing seam roof sytem cannot be effectively "flood" tested. The system is water shedding and not water proof. Therefore, it will likely leak when placed under water. Assuming that you are trying to locate a leak, a properly orchestrated "water test", using hoses, could be more effective. The idea behind a water test is to imitate the conditions that caused the leak. Starting from the lowest possible point of the leak area, spary water for several minutes (or longer, if necessary), and gradually move your way up the system until you re-create the leak. Be careful, not to create a leak that cannot be caused by natural conditions. I think you could create spec language with that process in mind. Obviously, there are many factors not discussed in this thread that will affect the procedure and results. What type of standing seam panel? Is it a double lock? Snap Lock? Sealant in the seam? Was water shield used? Are there any other assemblies (walls, flashings, penetrations) near the leak area? They will need to be tested, as well. Does it only leak when it rains? Is condensation a factor? Was insulation used? In standing seam assemblies, if the leak is not easily detectible, then it is often a very complicated and expensive process to discover the source of the problem. I would contact the manufacturer of the panel system for their recomendations and warranty coverages. Depending on circumstances involved, I may suggest that the Police Dept hire a professional roof consultant to investigate prior to performing a water test. Contact RCI (Roof Consultants Institute) for additional info on roof consultants in your area.