Submittal List in Div 1

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Author Message Melisa Sharpe New member Username: msharpe Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:47 pm:    I think similar discussions have been going on with other checklists for division 1, but I wanted to get some feedback on putting a submittal list in division 1. My boss wants me to include one for all of our future projects - but I am a bit apprehensive. How common is it to include a section by section list of required submittals? If you are doing this, how do you deal with consultant specs which aren’t necessarily organized “by the book” and not prepared by your office? Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 223 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:58 pm:    The problem with such a list is the difficulty in compiling and maintaining such a list. This would mean that whenever you or one of your consultants adds or deletes a submittal that they would have to remind you to modify the list. How often will that occur? It violates the say in once principle. If such a list is needed it should be created after the project was awarded. I also think there is benefit in having the person look at each of the sections and identifying what is really included in the submittal as opposed to its title. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 274 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:00 pm:    Melisa, If you use Arcom MasterSpec and have MasterWorks installed, MasterWorks will generate reports in spread sheet format. At one of my previous offices, the previous spec writer created a similar spreadsheet from scratch as a MSWord table. Is is a great tool for your CA people and the GC. You will have to manually add the MEP submittals but this is not a hard task. Wayne Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:07 pm:    We have one continuing client who insists on a submittal list in DIVISION 1, but is nice enough to create it themselves. Otherwise we do not provide a separate collated list. Our standard DIVISION ONE includes the requirement that the Contractor submit a Submittal Schedule soon after notice to proceed. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 806 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:21 pm:    Melisa: I agree with Mark. However, there will be clients--government entities, mostly--that will require an overall project submittal list. I've had to prepare one myself on the owner's own form. The key thing I would try to do is to make sure the list isn't included as a contract document if the list is going to be made available for the contractor. Indicate that it is available to the contractor as a tool for preparing their own submittal schedule, which they are required to prepare under most general conditions. If it is an internal document for the A/E only, then it will be good for the CA personnel to use to verify the contractor's own submittal schedule and to keep track of the submittals--a sort of log. Consultants have a tendency to spread their requirements throughout all three parts of a specification, and even sometimes on the drawings. I would tell your consultants to list the required submittals in Part 1 only and never on the drawings. If they refuse to do that, then have them compile the list of submittals and the location in the contract documents where each is required. Otherwise, they risk the chance of nobody ever submitting it because they couldn't find the requirement since the consultant was too lazy to put it where it belongs. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Richard Hird (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:33 pm:    For many years, as head of specifications and author of Div 1, I had to assemble the Submittals list. We did not put the submittal list in the Sections (This was all pre CSI when people did what they thought was best). The intent was to have a management tool to track submittals. When I started managing projects it found it allowed me to adjust the submittals based on the budget for Shop Drawings. Since design and production operations usually overrun their budgets, I had to looked carefully at what was on the list. Many submittals for "non shop drawings" are helpful but not necessary "when you do not have the time". Only when you have a comprehensive list can you adjust what is checked to what is important. If I was in an Owner's position paying "hourly" for submittal review, I would insist on the list and check it myself thoroughly. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 275 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:56 pm:    Melisa, Send an e-mail to wayne.yancey@callison.com and I will share the one I have. Wayne Doug Frank FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 251 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 11:31 am:    Folks, I too agree with Mark. I have been asked to create a list of required submittals and have always declined/refused for any number of reasons. First, creating a comprehensive list would be difficult since I rarely get to see final specs from our consultants until 5 minutes before they get sent to the printer. Sure I usually get a review set a couple of weeks before but there’s even money that changes have been made prior to final issue. The most significant reason in my mind is that it’s a nearly impossible task of keeping such a list complete and correct during the course of Bidding / Negotiating the Contract. We, and our consultants, add and delete spec sections and modify previously issued sections during that period (and even sometimes during construction) that would impact a Required Submittal List and I guarantee something important would fall through the cracks. Even if a newly issued specification section included a detailed list of required submittals, if those same submittals don’t then get added to a Division One section, you can be assured that the conflict created will not be pretty. Further, as Steven says, we require the Contractor to create a comprehensive Submittal List shortly after Contract Award. I’ve done the “reduction of Required submittals” as Richard suggests but it’s a corporate policy, not tailored on a job by job basis. We don’t want our CA folks to spend time reviewing and processing a Sample of a piece of drywall on any project (for example) so we don’t require one. We’ve deleted the requirement for a lot of submittals like that throughout the Project Manual and can show real time savings in CA. Doug Frank FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate FKP Architects, Inc. Houston, TX Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 178 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 03:06 pm:    The only way to get a comprehensive submittal register in the Project Manual is to create your specfications in SpecsIntact. and I know how much most of you LOVE that system. SpecsIntact uses a link system to ID and insert the required submittals into a standard form that is generated when you process the project folder into a completed Project Manual. Not that I'm advocating it for non-governmental projects unless specfically requested; It can be a mess to work with initally, but it does have some interesting features. otherwise, if you are working in Word or WordPerfect, manual is the only way to go unless you have a friendly hacker friend who can write you some macro code and you remember to put the links in all of your section documents. Margaret Chewning Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 349 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 03:45 pm:    I try to avoid lists of any kind when possible. The biggest pitfall with lists is that something gets left out, or left in if the specs change and the change isn't carried through. In general, I think lists, especially submittal lists like you are talking about are a bad idea, rife with "land mines" - does "liability" come to mind? I have to agree with DOug. We too are trying ot develop a "reduction of submittals" in our specs, but as ususal, billable work keeps getting in the way. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 490 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 04:09 pm:    Yes, governments or other owners may require a submittal schedule. But, keep in mind that projects under AIA A201 -2007 require the contractor to prepare the submittal schedule. "§ 3.10.2 The Contractor shall prepare a submittal schedule, promptly after being awarded the Contract and thereafter as necessary to maintain a current submittal schedule, and shall submit the schedule(s) for the Architect’s approval." The reason the a/e requires any given submittal is to allow the Contractor "...to demonstrate the way by which the Contractor proposes to conform to the information given and the design concept expressed in the Contract Documents for those portions of the Work for which the Contract Documents require submittals." [§ 3.12.4] The submittal schedule, therefore, gives the Contractor the opportunity not only to list the required submittals (one sense of the word “schedule”), but to provide a time frame for when each submittal needs to be submitted and when it needs to be returned (the other sense of “schedule”). A good Contractor will use this schedule to not only keep the architect’s review time on track but more importantly to keep the sub-contractor’s and supplier’s preparation time on track. Thus, it can serve as an important communication tool for all parties. So why would an A/E want to deprive a Contractor of the ability to manage the submittal process by taking away the contractually required submittal schedule? Architects and engineers already take enough work away that legitimately belongs elsewhere. My vote: submittal schedule as internal only tool for CA – a grudging OK; submittal schedule published in the Project Manual – NEVER. [see first sentence for exception] George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Scott Mize Senior Member Username: scott_mize_ccs_csi Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2009 Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 05:27 pm:    My $.02: SpecLink+ has the capability to generate a report that lists all the sections that require submittals and the general type of submittal (product information, shop drawing, sample, etc.) required. David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 122 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 09:06 am:    These requests usually come from participants who are averse to cracking open the project manual and getting accustomed to the great organizational system we already have. Mark is right - say it once. MASTERSPEC Section 01 29 00 - Payment Procedures lists a submittal schedule to be submitted with or prior to the contractor's initial payment application, although the firms I have worked for rarely enforce this. So, if you need to point people on your design team in the right direction, show them this Division 01 provision. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 309 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 09:58 am:    As George states above . . . A201 has always required the contractor to prepare and submit a submittals schedule. But as many have pointed out, this provision is not always enforced (or you still don't get one, even if it is). Nice thing about the 2007 edition of A201 is this new stipulation at the end of 3.10.2: "If the Contractor fails to submit a submittal schedule, the Contractor shall not be entitled to any increase in Contract Sum or extension of Contract Time based on the time required for review of submittals." Now let's see if we get them. Melisa Sharpe Junior Member Username: msharpe Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 07:48 pm:    This is all great feedback, thank you everyone - I agree with most of you to not include it in the project manual but my boss has been insisting for some time now. I think I now have some better tools to try and change their minds. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 923 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 06:49 pm:    as with some of the other folks on this board, I have used the submittals list generated by Masterworks but have used it for in-house use only -- as an aid to the CA guys in the office. My preparing a list will help them anticipate what the contractor will be submitting, and also helps them provide a check on what they should get from the contractor. As, as has been said here, unless the owner requires one in the documents, I think you are asking for trouble by including one. I've generally found that a lot of these items which are generated to "help" the contractor end up being used more as a claim for extra work or change in scope if the list isn't perfect. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 804 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 07:42 pm:    George was the first to state it - its a requirement of the Contractor to generate such a list. Unless you are doing a govt. project where they require the architect to provide it, or where you are design build and are merely a designing subcontractor to the GC where they require you to provide it - don't. Not officially. In house for internal use, no problem. Its nice to have something that the person doing CA (whether dedicated CA or the PA doing CA) can compare to the GC's submittal to see if it is close...rather than they having to go through the spec page by page. On the other hand - perhaps they should have to do that anyway -grin! William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX