Fill for Travertine

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 327 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:38 am:    We have a project with interior travertine wall paneling with honed finish for the lobby. The owner wants the holes and cracks in the travertine filled, so they will not trap dirt. Does anyone have experience on the pro's and con's of using a cementitious filler vs an epoxy filler, in particular on durability and appearance, eg not popping out, color and sheen match with stone, etc. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 26 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:49 am:    Is it April's Fools again? Perhaps the Owner would be happier with Corian wall panels? They could hose down the entire lobby. Every day. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 223 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 11:35 am:    Your question is a serious one and requires serious replies, so here are 2. Specify a hand vac with a long goose-neck wand as an accessory product in Part 2. Or, apply the owners' favorite epoxy grout color. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 52 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:07 pm:    Dave, I had a project that the owner did fill in the cracks in the marble wall and I will tell you that they were disappointed with the result. They used epoxy to fill in the areas and they got an exact match in color, but the finish would never match the polished marble and then you could see all the places they filled in even more. As Wayne implies, the imperfections of stone are what makes it stone... Wayne, Grant says if you get him an address, he will send you a copy. Do you have an email address that I can send you info to? Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 224 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:11 pm:    Alan, E: wayne.yancey@callison.com George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:25 pm:    I know that with a polished finish the travertine can be specified as pre-filled, and I believe they use epoxy. Honed I am not so sure about. Perhaps the MIA has an answer. http://www.marble-institute.com/ George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1010 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:38 pm:    Just curious, and it is not your call, Dave, but wonder why owner wants travertine which is known for its "nooks and crannies" and then want to fill them for a smooth finish-- is a puzzlement. Why not use another material choice with a "solid" finish? Oh, well, it all pays the same!!!!! Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 328 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:46 pm:    Given the architect's druthers, the travertine would be used unfilled. The golden rule governs here. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 769 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:48 pm:    Dave: I have the exact same request on a project I'm specifying right now--honed and filled travertine for flooring. The stone they want is from New Mexico, and I have a call into the manufacturer to find out a little more about the process. I'll fill you in with what I find out. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Bob Woodburn, RA CSI CCS CCCA LEED AP Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 295 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 12:56 pm:    I too have wondered why someone would fill travertine (especially with a filler that matched the stone color), when the natural fissures are its outstanding feature. And I've also wondered if a black filler, or a clear transparent filler, would help preserve some of that travertine character. Has anyone tried that? Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 329 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 01:18 pm:    The disadvantage of a clear filler is that it will yellow over time; also, epoxies will chalk on exposure to sunlight. I think having the filler color darker than the adjoining stone is a good idea; it means the filled holes will be noticeable, as with unfilled stone; also, since the color of the travertine will vary somewhat from one area of a slab to another, it would be tough to get an exact color match of the filler to the stone in any case. Dale Roberts CSI, CCPR, CTC Senior Member Username: dale_roberts_csi Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 01:45 pm:    Travertine can be filled onsite or bought prefilled. Most people choose travertine because it is an inexpensive natural stone and the wide range of colors available. Typically unfilled is used for wall applications. The Marble Institute of America (MIA) recommends cement, epoxy or polyester resins. As with most procedures it really comes down to having skilled installers. For an onsite wall application I would recommend cement based filler. For durability there will be no difference. Popping out of the fill will have to do more with the expansion and contraction of the stone then the fill. For matching the reflectively of the stone you will probably be better off with the polyester or epoxy. You do not want to match the background or base color of the stone, but one of the smaller accents in the stone itself. This will give you a more natural look, again it comes down to the skill of the installer mixing the color onsite. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1011 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 02:36 pm:    Really Ron, you deserve high credit for your pun in the last line of your posting!!! Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 770 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 03:02 pm:    Ralph, I wasn't trying to be punny. ;-) Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 473 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 03:08 pm:    Dale's comments refreshed my memory about my earlier experience with pre-filled travertine, for floors. The fill color didn't actually match any of the accents, but was selected to fall within the range of the accents (it's hard to describe color in words, isn't it). It ended up looking great and very natural indeed. I understand how the skill of the installer for a field application would be paramount. In fact, when we were selecting the tile, I had no idea how "holey" travertine was until I turned it over. (by the way, Ralph, this wasn't for a church project) George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 771 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 03:30 pm:    I just spoke with the manufacturer's technical rep for the product requested on my project. They use a colored hydraulic cement (ASTM C 1157) and they perform the filling at the manufacturing plant rather than in the field, which is good IMHO. That way, if the finish is unacceptable, you can reject the sample/mockup before an entire floor surface is covered. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Tim Werbstein, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tim_werbstein Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2006 Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 09:25 am:    Filled travertine has always been popular...you can never completely hide the cavities, which is the stone's beauty. The biggest problem I've seen is when architects put travertine on the exterior of buildings in freeze-thaw climates. An early recollection of this is when I was waiting for someone at the Lincoln Center opera house in New York. The travertine paving was filled, but the walls were natural. As I sat on a planter, a skilled worker cane and began placing a smooth patch in an area of wall that had crumbled from ice damage. Then, he went to a previously placed flat patch and began to drill irregular, natural-looking holes with a hand-operated wind-drill! His skill was impressive, and when I later examined a large area of wall, I discovered that this had been done often.