| Author |
Message |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 04:31 pm: |    |
To expand a little on the original topic:
One of the Architects here posed an interesting question: is there a published comparison of ASTM standards and tests with Canadian standards and tests? Our projects use many products that either originate on the other side of the border or some portion of the manufacturing process happens there, and tests are done and standards are met per one set of standards or the other and sometimes both for different characteristics or properties. She was speaking specifically of permeability of a vapor barrier, but we're finding the situation on other products, too.
It's not that the standard isn't being met, or the test passed, but that the testing methods and how they equate one to the other, are unknown. I'm looking for something that says "ASTM XXX" is the same as "Canadian Standard XXXX" within the following parameters or that "Canadian Test XXXX" tests in accord with "ASTM XXX" standards and methods; and then maybe includes a description of the test method.
Is anyone aware of such a document? Or a method to reasonably assure that a product meets the criteria we specified? |
Karen L. Zaterman, CCS, LEED-AP, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: kittiz
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 07:58 pm: | |
Hi Lynn. I just started a Canadian project and am beginning to see what you mean. (I'm using the National "masters") My assumption is that where there is a Canadian Standard there is usually an American equivalent, although like you suggest they may not always cover the same criteria.
A comparison document would certainly be a help... but I suspect the only way to be truly assured is by analyzing every applicable standard. <Yikes> I'll keep my eyes & ears open.
Karen L. Zaterman, CSI, CCS, SCIP-Affil, LEED AP BD+C
Moffatt & Nichol - Long Beach, CA |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 09:31 pm: | |
I would assume that if you are used to doing work in the US but are doing a job in Canada you will hava a Canadian credentialed design professioal on board. Will suggest that it will be cheaper to involve the Canadian design professional to determine what standards to reference than to try to sort it out yourself. |
Karen L. Zaterman, CCS, LEED-AP, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: kittiz
Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 02:00 am: | |
Of course, I have an office in Canada full of PEs & I do rely on them to be familiar with the Canadian standards, so I don't have a problem with that project -- I am just seeing what Lynn is talking about. Her problem is more in the nature of work being done on both sides of the border(?) & whether the test methods are the same.
Karen L. Zaterman, CSI, CCS, SCIP-Affil, LEED AP BD+C
Moffatt & Nichol - Long Beach, CA |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1094
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 09:33 am: | |
Karen is correct. It's not that the project is on one side of the border or the other, it's that products are coming from the side opposite the project specification origin.
I'll have specified a product that is tested to ASTM XXX and a contractor submits a product that is tested to a Canadian standard XXXX. It may be a wonderful product that meets or exceeds the desired parameters, but how am I to know?
I don't want to exclude good products because they are meeting a different - but equal - standard just because I don't know something that perhaps I should know. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 12:27 pm: | |
Even though the product may be good if the code specifies that the product or material conform to a particular ASTM specification and they provide data related to a Canadian standard you have a code and contract non-compliance problem.
In some cases you or your consultant may be able to dig into it and determine whether the material or product complies with the required standard. If the proposed product you have a messier situation that may in extreme cases result in having to get signoff from the building official for the nonconformance.
I propose that these cases be treated as substitutions for several reasons not the least is the need for you and your consultants to be paid for their time in evaluating the products. The burden of the proof is and should remain with the Contractor.
If we are not talking about a code compliance issue you may have more flexibility but I would still deal with it as a substitution.
Manufacturers that want to sell on both sides of the border can and have sorted this out and can provide all of the documentation needed by US codes. The other materials or products I would be cautious about. |
Paul Gerber
Senior Member
Username: paulgerber
Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 01:07 pm: | |
Lynn:
Sorry, but no such cross reference table exists, eh!.
I deal with this on a daily basis. Depending on the product there may be no CSA or CGSB test that is the same as an ASTM. I have a mix of Canadian and American standards listed in my specs, depending on what products are being specified. There are some that are very similar but just because (for example) a product meets ASTM E84 that it has been tested and meets the requirements of ULC S102.
Ride it like you stole it!!! |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 01:30 pm: | |
Paul,
Thanks for the response that I was expecting! I had high hopes, and low expectations. Perhaps it's a project that either a CSC or CSI chapter could undertake. I think it would be a daunting task for one person, but a committee might be able to at least make a start. As we work more and more across the border, I think it would be a valuable tool. Of course, there's also the idea that manufacturers that want their products used across the border should test to the appropriate and applicable standards! That would make it very easy for us poor, benighted specifiers. (Not to be confused with those specifiers who have been knighted). |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 361
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 02:57 pm: | |
Lynn,
For a good source for Canadian Standards and US standards in use in Canada, get your hands on the current National Building Code of Canada (NBC) which has tables for all the standards referenced in the NBC. Some are from truly Canadian sources and some from the US (ASTM, ANSI). Other Canadian standards are TTMAC and AWMAC which are harmonized with TCNA and AWS, 1st edition. |
Paul Gerber
Senior Member
Username: paulgerber
Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 04:29 pm: | |
Depending on what province the project is in, the NBC may not be your answer. We have our own Ontario Building Code, which although very similar to the NBC also has some differences.
It gets really interesting when you are doing a project for a native community as despite the fact that the project may be in Ontario, due to federal funding and approvals the National Building Code has to be used.
Ride it like you stole it!!! |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 66
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 10:59 am: | |
Lynn, I just try to be benign.
I'm not sure how practical a matrix would be since the standards are hardly equivalent. As Sheldon noted, without having total system standards, individual testing standards don't even equate to each other on this side of the 49th parallel. We currently have to deal with competitors who use different tests to measure similar criteria making a side-by-side comparison between products practically impossible.
From what I've seen, Canadians are just as insistent that US manufacturers test to Canadian standards as we are, or should be, that Canadian manufacturers test to US standards, such as they are. Of course there are exceptions; many National Master Specification (NMS) Sections reference ASTM, ASHRAE, EPA, and numerous other US standards when there are no Canadian standards available. By the same token NMS sometimes ignores jointly issued standards such as AAMA/WDMA/CSA 101/I.S.2/A440-08 - The North American Fenestration Standard in favor of the old CAN-CSA A440 series. It can get very confusing. As Paul pointed out, you then have all of the provincial Codes such as Ontario, British Columbia, and Alberta. Add to that the incredibly cold temperatures that have to be dealt with in winter for some locations (40 below gives a whole new meaning to cold-weather masonry or concrete work) as well as the need to balance our designs to account for the lack of workers in some of the more remote areas and you begin to realize just how much of a cultural difference we have between our two countries. Still, with increased interaction comes increases in communication and we're already seeing joint standards being issued. Maybe we have to started adding u's into moure of our wourds. Eh? |
Paul Gerber
Senior Member
Username: paulgerber
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:21 am: | |
hmmmmmm Ken...do I detect the presence of another Crazy Canuck in our midst or just some project experience in the Great White North??
Ride it like you stole it!!! |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 365
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:31 am: | |
Don't get heartburn over not referencing NA harmonized standards such as AAMA/WDMA/CSA 101/I.S.2/A440-08 - The North American Fenestration Standard. Other harmonized standards exist for architectural woodwork and tiling. In Canada the nuts and bolts of the new AWS, 1st edition is referenced as AWMAC. In Canada the nuts and bolts of the TCNA 2010 is referenced as TTMAC. TTMAC does not use the same installation method numbers as TCA.
As I noted above, get a copy of the NBC. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 67
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:43 am: | |
Alas I am in Baltimore, but I am hoping to learn the secret handshake one day. I've been blessed with working on a number of projects (long o, of course) north of the border and find it very gratifying. Our Canadian brethren often have a much more pragmatic approach to design and construction and while they work hard they rarely take work personally. I find it very refreshing and hope the construction trend continues to provide me with opportunities to work there. I had toyed with the idea of migrating but found myself in Edmonton this past January where I quickly realized that when the weather turns cold enough there's not much difference between degrees F and degrees C; 15 below for a daily high was pretty darn cold, and then the wind hit. Still, there are no US equivalents to the charm and good relationships I've found whether in Toronto, Calgary, or Victoria. It's all good. |
Paul Gerber
Senior Member
Username: paulgerber
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 02:35 pm: | |
Ken...there are some of us who still take work personally, although I have never had the pleasure (? - can work really be classified a pleasure?) to work south of the 49th parallel so maybe you're talking in a different way.
Only -15C in Edmonton? Must have been a mild day! The one thing I discovered when traveling to the west for my one job was that there is decidedly less humidity in the air out there compared to South-Western Ontario, so you sometimes don't realize how cold it really is until you're getting to the point of being in trouble because of it! In Ontario, the cold smacks you in the face and proceeds quickly to travel directly to your bones in a short timeframe.
Of course Calgary is a micro-climate unto itself...ask Wayne. The standard saying in "Cowtown" is "if you don't like the weather, wait for 5 minutes"...and it's true. I remember one morning venturing out of my hotel to fairly mild weather, which got cooler, add a few sprinkles, then a steady rain, then some snow mixed in, then snow, then heavy snow. By the time I got back to the hotel that evening there was about 6" to 8" of snow on the ground.
Let me know the next time you are in "Turonna". Maybe we can get together to wax poetic (?) about specification writing, while imbibing a couple of libations, eh? But you'll have to be careful if that happens...we actually have alcohol in our beer up here!
Ride it like you stole it!!! |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 12:15 pm: | |
Ken,
I was born in Edmonton and raised in Calgary. I scoff and spit on peoples shoes who complain when the temps go below 40 degrees F in the Pacific NW. They do not know cold.
After several weeks of -23 deg C (about -5 deg F), -15C felt really warm, especially under the big blue skies in southern Alberta. Calgary experiences dry chinook winds in the winter. 50 F degree temperature swings are common after a few hours. Hard on buildings, cars, and footwear.
Calgarians always knew relief was in sight in 7-10 days. Not so in Edmonton were it can be below 0 deg F for 90 days at a stretch. Been there, done that. Great for pond hockey. That is why so many great hockdy players came from AB, Sask, Manatoba, northern Ontario.
Nothing like waiting for the light rail train or a bus in this weather at 6:00 a.m. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 05:18 pm: | |
Thanks for the invitation.
That is another wonderful aspect of going to Canada; they actually have beer in their beer, unlike the brewed beverages around here.
Yes, Calgary almost trapped me on a similar day; started out sunny, then rainy, then while sitting in the airport I watched the TV screen as they showed a blizzard coming off the Rockies. Thankfully my flight took off about an hour before the snow started in earnest. The folks at the airport thought nothing of a couple of feet of snow coming their way, they figured it would be good for a few hours off. |
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