Number of materials

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Author Message Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 11:54 am:    Does anyone know approximately how many materials are specified in a project manual for a 15 to 20 million dollars project? Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 99 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:02 pm:    How long is a rope? John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 955 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:09 pm:    Also depends on how you define a material. Is the window one material, or is it glass, paint, extrusion, EPDM gasket, five screw types, balance (spring, connector, sleeve), etc.? Some of these we specify, and some come by default with what we specify. And why do you want to know? I once was curious about the number of parts going in to a building that the architect must draw or specify. Never did come up with a number. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 100 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:15 pm:    Generically, count the number of sections after Division 01 or perhaps Division 02. Sections like Cast-in-Place Concrete could potentially have dozens of materials. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 672 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:15 pm:    Maybe a more appropriate question would be: On average, how many specification sections are prepared for a 10- to 20-million-dollar project? Wayne's response still applies, but now you can put it in a form that is more comprehensible. But, there are times when 3-million-dollar project may have more specification sections than a project that cost considerably more. It all depends on the complexity of the project. A project manual could run between 100 to 200 specification sections, and possibly more. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 902 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:19 pm:    Have some information from fairly recent studies and comments, - on a moderate-sized prject, the architect must provide answers for some 17,000 questions/items [materials included, but other aspects too] -a moderate-sized project can involve approximately 500,000 items of construction [from nails/screws , to the larger elements] At least some perspective! Bob Woodburn, RA CSI CCS CCCA LEED AP Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 263 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:41 pm:    It makes sense that a manufactured product would count as one material, not as the total of its different component materials. However, though it would seem that a material is "specified" only if it is actually named in the specs (or called out on the drawings) along with some "specific" identification or description, additional materials that are neither named nor described are nevertheless often "specified" (in the broader sense of "required") in indefinite terms (e.g., "provide primers, fasteners, accessories and other materials recommended by the manufacturer and/or necessary for a complete installation"). So the actual number of materials specified could be determined only through an exhaustive audit of the construction process. Even then it would still likely be, at best, an approximation. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 819 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 12:53 pm:    Gerard: why are you asking this question? at the moment, that's more interesting to me than the actual answer to your question. Anne Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 321 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 02:02 pm:    The value of the project doesn't mean much; I've specified some very small projects that seemed to have one of everything, and projects of higher cost that involved only a few items, e.g., window replacement. For a typical project (whatever that is) involving construction of a given type of building, I would expect the number of items specified to be similar regardless of cost. A one story hospital will have essentially the same stuff as one of ten stories. It is an interesting question, though, and I, like Anne, am curious why you ask. Somewhere I heard it said that there are ten thousand components in a building. If you add all the nuts, bolts, washers, etc., and the parts in those things that come in a box, it doesn't sound unreasonable. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 134 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 03:07 pm:    Our project teams sort of understand that in a given format, the specifications for a 1,000,000 SF project will be almost identical in size to a 50,000 SF project. But they still do not get that a seperate spec for a 1000 SF service building for the same project and client might be 75% as big. Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 05:47 pm:    Thanks Ralph and y'all for the responses. It makes for interesting reading. Why do I ask? It's been floating in the back of my mind for a good long time; curiosity I guess. Also laziness because I never wanted to count. As far as defining "materials," I also would include assemblies such as windows as one unit - as John mentions above, if we start breaking down a window into its components we'd end up with millions of materials. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 322 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 10:41 pm:    I like "millions of materials" - makes our job look more impressive. ;-) Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 797 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 09:31 am:    "...billions and billions..." would make it even more impressive. Anonymous   Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 09:52 am:    ".........quad-zillions...." Hey, we all deserve a raise!!! David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 115 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 10:01 am:    I think it is a fascinating idea that the design team must answer as many as 17,000 questions for a project. Obviously, some are answered in the blink of an eye, and some never get answered. This raises our consciousness of the team's value to the client and society. Great discussion. Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 10:45 am:    just say the materials involve 'googol' [one with a hundred zeroes]--I know I use it a lot for product searching. [yes, yes, I know about the spelling] Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: bob_johnson Post Number: 174 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 10:53 am:    17,000 questions to answer on EVERY moderate sized project is probably a good hint as why we are not a very efficient industry. I wonder if we can get some checklists of questions/answers regarding at least technical information built into the BIM process to make them readily available to all the interested parties to make us at least a little more efficient? To do that we need to start thinking about what type of technical information is required from whom, and when in the process. One way to attack that is to list out the various types of technical information required in our current processes from conception through occupancy and then try to project them into the BIM process. We need to first catalog the required types of information from whom, and when. Only after we have the required data figured out can the means (software) to accomplish it can be attacked. To talk about the software before we know what data we are dealing with is a wasted effort. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 327 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 11:17 am:    Bob, Now that's a good point. So many things could be better organized and BIMs (those that produce 3D models and those that are just databases of information) could all be put together to provide lots of useful secondary and tertiary data AND could answer a lot of questions. However we live with a construction industry that prides its self on being so inefficient as to be laughable. And our US version of that industry is one of the (if not the) most efficient in the world. Without getting “in to it” the architect is positioned well to organize and help communicate information to all, BUT we are not paid for it (nor will we be) The contractor on the other hand gets savings with every conflict found. Therefore the (large) contractor will be the major BIM creator as they have the most to gain from it. The subs and small contractors don’t have the mental and $$ resources. One possible good outcome of the sustainable movement is that If Owners (developers) can be persuaded that a 100 year building is better than (4) 25 year buildings (each of the 4 with a three year investment turnaround) AND that therefore a good BIM helps their LONG TERM bottom line (as GSA has already figured out)… Well… Then you might find some of those 17,000 questions being answered before we build. Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: bob_johnson Post Number: 175 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 12:33 pm:    To quote Ralph: "on a moderate-sized prject, the architect must provide answers for some 17,000 questions/items." The design professional is getting paid to deal with these questions. What I am talking about is trying to make the process of dealing with that many questions more efficient - at least the technical information questions. I would say industry wide we are not highly organized in knowing what questions to ask of whom when - I think most of us do it "on the fly" based on our knowledge and experience. Yes some firms have formulated some good checklists and I know some specifiers have formulated checklists of questions. But I don't think anyone that I know of has ever cataloged all the technical type information required on a comprehensive basis. Here is a shot at the sort of thing I am talking about listed as a series of steps in the process: · Establish criteria for functional elements (systems and assemblies) and link to building model elements. · List potential solutions for systems and assemblies for analysis (energy, light, sound, etc.) in the building model. · Make selection of systems and assemblies and link to building model elements. · Select project delivery method. · Establish basic administrative and procedural requirements. · Make preliminary selection of components (materials and methods) and link to building model components. · Document procurement requirements. · Document contracting requirements. · Document administrative and procedural requirements. · Select and document quality requirements for materials by performance, descriptive, and/or proprietary methods. · Select and document quality requirements for installation methods. · Document quality assurance and quality control requirements for materials and methods. · Make revisions to quality requirements for materials during procurement and construction periods. · Make revisions to quality requirements for installation methods during procurement and construction periods. · Revise information in building model to reflect installed materials and methods. · Link operation and maintenance data to the building model at the completion of construction period. I believe the design professional typically gets paid for all of the above except for maybe the last two. What if we formulated a comprehensive list similar to the one above and then started to create checklists of the information required for each? Obviously such checklists probably would not be so complete as to cover every conceivable situation, but they could cover the great majority of technical questions. We currently have designated locations for the above list of information. We still need the same type of information for the BIM process. The questions becomes (1) Do we need any additional type of technical information? (2) Are any of them now unnecessary? (3) How does this information fit into the BIM process? If we did that and also determined from whom to whom when, we would then have the data that we need to incorporate into the BIM process. We could then rationally deal with the questions how the information can incorporated into or linked to the model. The first step is to have a compreshensive knowlege of the data we are talking about. I am not talking about whether good or mediocre designs result although I certainly think that the resulting projects would improve as the result of a better exchange of technical information. What I am talking about is trying to make the process of obtaining and distributing the technical information required for the design/construct/occupy process more effective and efficient. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 906 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 01:11 pm:    Isn't what Mr. Johnson is talking about and listing, really the crux of how "specifications" information fits into BIM? Needs preening and surely cannot be just manufacturers' information. And that thought and direction, as I took it, has been sort of discounted by other very smart people on this discussion board as being far off [5-15 years]-- and maybe not possible [not to put words in any one's mouth]. But, I don't know, maybe we do need to start now. Massive effort and may need a few box cars to hold all the data!!! Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: bob_johnson Post Number: 176 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 01:46 pm:    Again, I am talking about understanding the data we are dealing with BEFORE you deal with technology or software solutions. Yes, the technology solutions are probably some distance in the future, but when the time comes, do you want someone else telling you what you information you need from whom when, or do you want to have a good understanding of the information required and how it fits into the process so that good requirements can be given to the software programmers. In saying process, I am not talking aobut the software, I am talking about the design/construct/occupy process using BIM as a tool. Anonymous   Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 02:03 pm:    Vis-a-vis Bob Johnson's last sentence, we have a 24-page checklist of our specs Sections, extensions, examples and hints so our Leads can block out their drawing and specs needs and be cued to what information they may need to include and should ask for. Are we to the good?