Gypsum Board Finishing Levels

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Author Message Richard Hird (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 05:28 pm:    I am having a hard time reconciling two statements in a popular resource. "Level 4 is suitable for surfaces receiving light-textured finish wallcoverings and flat paints. It is generally the standard exposed finish. "Level 5 is suitable for surfaces receiving gloss and semigloss enamels and surfaces subject to severe lighting. It is considered a high-quality gypsum board finish." My typical client never paid for a level 5 finish and I never would recommend "flat paint" for a wall surface". Egg shell perhaps? Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 269 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 06:43 pm:    If you are using gloss paints or have a very long wall (long sightline down that wall surface), you would definately want to use Level 5. Otherwise, Level 4 is a good general purpose level of finish to specify for everything else short of a maintainence space. If you are using a product like First Coat, that helps "bridge" the gap in finishes between Level 4 and Level 5. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 97 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 06:44 pm:    Richard, Level 4: Yes, our typical for painted finish up to and including semigloss (not in back of house). Level 5: Yes, but mostly for surfaces subject to severe lighting conditions such as in a skylight well surrounded by gypsum board bulkhead or large expanses of gypsum board at entrances. Ceilings are usually painted flat same as acoustic ceiling panels. Eggshell or satin or pearl for walls. Semigloss for walls in washrooms not covered with ceramic tile. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 671 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 06:45 pm:    So, what is your problem with the two statements? Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 07:06 pm:    We provide the following in Section 09 29 00: Levels of Gypsum Board Finish: Provide the following levels of gypsum board finish per USG “Gypsum Construction Handbook, Centennial Edition”. 1. Level 1: for ceiling plenum areas, concealed areas, and where indicated, unless a higher level of finish is required for fire resistive rated assemblies and sound rated assemblies. 2. Level 2: where water resistant gypsum backing board panels form substrates for tile, and where indicated. 3. Level 3: not used. 4. Level 4: Typical, for all gypsum board surfaces unless otherwise indicated. 5. Level 5: for gypsum board surfaces, at specific locations shown on Drawings or as required for specified finishes, including: a. All curved Gypsum Board Wall assemblies. b. Surfaces scheduled to receive multi-color paint finishes as specified in Section 09 91 20 – Interior Painting when recommended by the finish manufacturer. c. Other locations as shown on Drawings. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 816 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 07:22 pm:    Level 5 is also very often used in areas with directional natural lighting (light wells, or long glazed walls). in my last office, we did half the ceiling in Level 4 to save money and the other half in Level 5 and the designers and partners complained continually about the Level 4 finish, saying that the savings "wasn't worth it". In my office before I came here, some folks used to call out a "Level 6" which was a Level 5 on a curved surface. we stopped that practice. as for the flat paint, I specify it all the time. our standard wall paint is 5 degrees gloss and there are very few exceptions. Richard hird (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 08:28 pm:    Re: So, what is your problem with the two statements? They are inconsistent. It states for level 4 " ... wallpaper and flat paint. It is generally the standard exposed finish." Flat paint is not, nor is wallpaper, a standard or a recommended exposed wall finish because you can not wash it without smoothing the surface. Semi-gloss egg shell are standard, gloss if you have a lot of washing, are recommended for walls. Not to be picky; it is just that I am having my nose rubbed in this statement. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 951 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 08:27 am:    I suspect the Gypsum Association is not being very precise when they say "flat." I think they mean "other than semi-gloss or gloss." Anyway, our practice is the same as above. However, I've been starting to urge project architects here to use veneer plaster (which is commonly available in our market) for those sensitive areas such as large lobby walls. Though it evens out the surface texture, a Level 5 finish will not give you a truly flat surface because butt joints, especially, are always a bit proud of the surface. These are visible with lighting that projects nearly parallel to the surface. Veneer plaster is only a few cents a foot more, and is much flatter and smoother. Plus, it applies amazingly fast (2 steps: hang rock, then plaster) and is less dusty than drywall. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 289 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 12:02 pm:    John: Are you sure about cost. May be because of the fact that interior plaster is not common here, but when I priced this some years ago, veneer plaster was about twice the cost of Level 5 finish (which was a big jump over Level 4)? Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 817 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 12:46 pm:    Peter: in the northwest, we typically got virtually identical prices for veneer plaster and for Level 5 finish, and in Southern California as well. In the colder climate, the plaster guys can't work outside during most of the winter, so they do the veneer plaster projects cheaply that time of year; in SoCal, there are just a lot of people who do plaster. Vivian Volz, RA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: vivianvolz Post Number: 110 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 02:16 pm:    Interesting about the veneer plaster. Thanks for the idea. I'll have to look into it here in NoCal. Here at my very large interior design firm, Level 4 is standard for typical work, as are eggshell finish on painted walls and flat paint for ceilings. I recommend Level 5 for "first-impressions spaces" like reception areas, lobbies, and most retail sales areas. We also use it behind semi-gloss paint, bold graphics, bright accent paints, and wall coverings very likely to telegraph imperfections, especially dry-erase wall coverings. We try not to ever make it the Contractor's call where the Level 5 occurs. We either list the locations in the spec (if it's easy to name the rooms) or indicate in the finish plans. A lot of our "artisan" veneer plasterers require a Level 5 finish as their substrate, but I suspect that's so that the surface is uniformly absorptive, not because it needs to be so very flat. It makes me curious about the difference between their systems and the system John cites, though. I usually let the Contractor have the option of using a surfacer-primer, which is supposed to be approved in mockup. I don't let them do it behind said artisan veneer plaster. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 02:57 pm:    This is a bit off the subject, but as far as the paint goes, I was told by the Master Painters Institute that low gloss (MPI gloss level 2) is always better than flat (MPI gloss level 1) because it looks almost identical, but is cleanable. They also said that no one should specify “eggshell” finish unless you tie it a standard such as MPI’s gloss level system. That is because one company’s ‘eggshell’ can look identical to another company’s flat, semi-gloss, or even gloss paint. Anonymous   Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 03:04 pm:    We talking real veneer plaster-- 1/8" on gyp lath or a parge coat of drywall mud uniformly applied over gypsum wallboard? Don't see close pricing around here(midwest), plus don't like added moisture in building at this stage. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 952 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 04:25 pm:    Yes, real veneer plaster, not drywall compound (which would make it a level 5 finish), applied to veneer plaster base (commonly called blue-board around here). There are various one- and two-coat systems on the market, but the total one-coat thickness is typically around 1/16 inch. Therefore, the amount of moisture is minimal; and, it dries very quickly since it is so thin. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 05:04 pm:    Regarding veneer plaster base (commonly called blue-board around here) which I am not familiar with: Our "first-impressions spaces" as termed above often come with a lot of rated walls. Is the blue board available as a type "X" and accepted in UL (or otherwise) listed assemblies, or do you have to put it over a rated assembly? Vivian Volz, RA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: vivianvolz Post Number: 112 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 05:29 pm:    Richard Baxter, point taken on the eggshell. I used the term in this context because everyone here knows what I'm talking about, but in my specs it says Low Luster, which gets defined with a gloss meter reading in there someplace. Richard Hird, are the people rubbing your nose in it from the design side or the construction side? I hope you're getting the drift of the forum, that we're putting eggshell/low-luster paint on Level 4 walls for most spaces, and Level 5 for special spaces. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 289 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 05:41 pm:    Yes, veneer plaster base (blueboard) is available as Type X, 5/8 inch thick Richard Hird (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 09:40 pm:    Vivian Actually it is a young client Architect that is faced with having to make the Contractor rework the walls. I think he is just doing his due diligence. He has been pretty good at checking all sources. I want to thank everyone for their insights. It has been helpful and I am fascinated how prices and practices can be so regional.