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Author Message Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 885 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:10 pm:    May be wrong in these changing times, but our interiors people insist that all product information [i.e., manufacturer, type, pattern, color, style, etc.] information should be located on the drawings. With that the specifciations that "remain" are merely the technical backup "stuff" that keeps them out of trouble. What happened to specing everything in the Project Manual and using designators/indicators on the drawings to ID specific selections at various locations? Be kind, I'm old and easily discouraged. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 323 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:28 pm:    You’re right they are wrong! Lead these fallen sheep unto the Path of Righteousness. Purge their “Schedule For Those Who Finish” of technical data! Leave them their pattern and color if they must, for WE do not care. Offer unto the spec writer that which is OURS! Theirs is only the Quantity and Location. To the spec writer goes the QUALITY. Sorry, I opened a new bar of Dr. Bronner’s soap last night and read the whole label. seriously I let the finish schedule of legend take the pattern, color, style etc. but keep (for example) the carpet type, yarn weight etc in the spec SO that if substitutions show up I have tech data to judge them against. Not to mention all of part 1 and part 3 Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 284 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:30 pm:    I agree that it is preferable that "everything" should be specified in the Project Manual and indicated in the drawings using only designations such as CPT-1 (I'm an old school dinosaur too). But I don't have a big problem if interior finish product information is on the drawings--this actually can be advantageous in that if tile, say, changes from red to blue this change can be made without the necessity for specification coordination. However, I do insist that if a product changes that I be notified because that change could create a conflict with the silver bullets in the specification which were based on the originally-selected product. And I do review what is included in the drawing information because the designers often do not include complete information needed to fully describe a specific product (complete model number for instance). I have not had any problems working with interior designers in this way nor any resistance from them to be more explicit in what they include on the drawings. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 748 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:31 pm:    They are being lazy, that's all. Many interiors firms don't do specifications at all. Here in our office, the interiors projects that are done as interiors only projects all go out that way. They have these several drawings that are nothing but 'notes' that paraphrase specification requirements, and otherwise all products they put on their 'finish' schedule. When they are working with the architectural side, such as we do a high rise residential project where our interiors is the interior designer, they use a whole different set of drawings where designations are used and all notes and terminology is coordinated and reviewed by us. Often you get the excuse that they just don't have the time. Though I have demonstrated several times that if they don't have the burden of doing the 'notes' review and use designators there is an actual savings on time on their side and an overall savings of time for the office. They even see it time and again how smooth and clean it goes when they work with the architecture side. But, bad habits are hard to erase. William Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:35 pm:    I hear the same thing from some engineers who seem to think specifications should protect themselves from mistakes or missing information. The subtext is that they do not want to bother with the specifications. Supposedly the specification writer has the magic words to keep them out of trouble. In reality magic words will not compensate for lack of thought and lack of coordination. Sometimes it makes sense to put some information on the drawings but this information still needs to be coordinated with the specification. This will not work unless somebody coordinates the drawings with the specifications. One place where the classical approach causes difficulties is where there are a lot of variations in the products used. In wood construction it would not be feasible to list individual joist hangers and straps in the specifications and then use some special notation on the drawings. In this situation we call out the product designation right on the drawings. These callouts are often specific to a particular member so there is not a need to coordinate with other drawings. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 749 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:36 pm:    Simplifying this of course is that if the project manual contains a listing of all the colors of all the items (we do this) then there is no major change or coordination of the spec when a color changes. All the colors for all the materials on a major project with lots of interiors items such as a high rise residential ends up with a listing of colors that is maybe a 4 or 5 page document. Really easy to make a change there and reissue it, all colors also all in one place for the whole project. William Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 789 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:46 pm:    I'm in complete agreement with Marc and at my previous place of employment, managed to convince the very intelligent Interior Designers of the correctness and conciseness of this approach. They were also grateful for another pair of eyes to pick up typos and sometimes even (horrors!) errors such as veneer cut or match. Contractors were appreciative because all the information they needed was in one place. And it's done that way here, too (except for some few, smaller interior remodeling type of projects) Philip R. Carpenter AIA Senior Member Username: philip_carpenter Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2008 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:57 pm:    Interiors folks are similar to other 'specialty' consultants (ie acoustical, kitchen equip, etc) they can be highly skilled in their particular field of endeavor and be pretty blind to the requirements of the comprehensive-ness (is that a word?) required from an over-all project point of view. It can be an on-going battle to get these groups to defer to the wisdom of the ages on such topics. Fight on! John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 946 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:51 pm:    I prefer to ascribe a more generous interpretation of this practice. When selecting interiors products, as we know, appearance (texture, color, etc.) are paramount. Thus, they see the entire product's description as being the attribute they are selecting. Keeping this information in the single location of the schedule is simple and reasonable. Having part in the spec and part in the schedule is a demanding coordination issue. Having it all in the spec works, too, though my work load is higher. I have no fundamental problem with a 'longer' description in the schedule, and coordination is relatively straight forward. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 197 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:26 pm:    I'm with Reverend Chavez. They get the colors, patterns, etc. I get the quality and installation. I just love it when I don't have to go tracking down colors and can say, "As indicated on Finish Schedule." Of course I try to stay ahead of them on issues of actual material changes, successfully MOST of the time. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:39 pm:    We do a lot of large projects with sometimes 12 carpets, 50+ tiles, and so on. I accept that the color, pattern, custom strike-off are on the Finish Schedules on the Drawings. They change some of those constantly, so it saves me work. But it causes problems too. The interior designers never seem to worry about tile thickness, for example. Or if they do, they get it wrong and if the 4-inch square version is 1/4 inch thick, they assume the 24-inch square one is too. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 85 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 04:23 pm:    I used to be RREEAAALLYY anal about listing all a products attributes in the spec but eventually came to realize it was a make work campaign. Interiors select products by brand name/manufacturer/distrbutor/face size/thickness/color/pattern/etc that have inherent attributes. My methodology became redundant. I finally realized that if the designer selected Shaw carpet tile BLAH-BLAH in color blah, all the necessary attributes were inherent in the product brand name. They even include if the tiles are installed 1/4-turn. Room finish and color schedules have migrated from drawings to specs back to drawings as CAD and spreadsheets became more prevalent. I progressed to a special section that gave colors and some attributes for all products touched by the interiors folks including exterior/interior metal products. Contractors liked this methodology for its ease of use. Today, we have the finish materials legends back on the drawings, developed, managed, and updated by the interior designers. I simply coordinate the "type designators." I now offer up ways and means to aid the interior designers to do more with less or offer methodologies for those ocassions when color has not been selected. But that is another topic for a future thread. Somedays I long to go back in time when I did the drawings and spec (coordinated) but I wake up in a cold sweat and quickly come to my senses. Only 4 more hours till I can get back in my Road King and ride, Sally ride. It badly needs a wash after riding 8-10 hours in the rain on Wednesday between Orofino ID and Seattle. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 122 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 05:13 pm:    Wayne, "riding 8-10 hours in the rain on Wednesday between Orofino ID and Seattle" is called washing for my BMW GS. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 86 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 05:29 pm:    Steve, I washed my boots inside and out, 3 pairs of socks, two pairs of gloves, two pairs of WileyX glasses, my windshield, my neck, the inside of my helmet, but the bike is still dirty as hell. Keep the rubber side down and the chrome side up if you have chrome. In the last 7 miles, I had a close encounter on a hill with a pickup going to fast in the rain, changing lanes into the gap infront of me, fishtail, fishtail some more, hit the guardrail on the ditch side, roll over once and come to rest in my lane on the driver's side of the truck. Raining biblical proportions. I pulled up behind and parked the bike. The driver popped out of the passenger door unscathed. Wayne Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 05:46 pm:    Sounds like a true pucker moment Wayne, I'm glad your response as usual was clear, concise and correct. Living in San Francisco, the first and last 7 miles of a roadtrip are always the worst for me. Duane C. Grace (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 10:31 pm:    Gentlemen: I am an old time Building Official (CBO & CSI) who now spends my time either reviewing plans for cities, counties etc., or acting as a consultant on building & fire codes to the design profession. I still believe that all items should be in the specifications, and not on the plans. I would agree that having the type of hanger required in wood construction is likely more appropriate in the specific detail than trying to coordinate that in the specifications. My believe is that when I receive a set of plans and specifications, I should be able to go out, purchase the material required and construct that structure without having to ask a lot of questions of the owner and or architect. (A interesting site, I will be back often.) Russell W. Wood, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: woodr5678 Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 08:56 am:    I have consulted with many architectural firms in the past that had interior designers. Quite often the interior designers could not make up their minds during the design phase. So I could not spec more than the basic Part-1 & Part-3 data. The ID would quite often throw an allowance onto the drawings at the eleventh hour...for say flooring, wall covering, etc. They were fine with this, so I had to be fine with this. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 793 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 09:39 am:    In defense of some Interior Designers, they often await a decision by an Owner (or an Owner's designer) on colors and palettes. Many times those decisions are not forthcoming until after the documents are on the streets for bids. The Interior Designer may have no other recourse than an allowance. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 895 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 09:39 am:    Welcome Mr. Grace-- old CBO myself and converted to specs guy! Search this site [keyword; code] for other code and specs discussions. And the lack of use of specs by plans examiners. Lots of fun! All you others-- WATCH OUT!!! I got reinforcements now!!! John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 949 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 11:43 am:    I will also defend our interior designers by noting that usually it is the client, not our firm, that delays the decision-making. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 11:51 am:    I will defend our Interiors department as well. Not only are they talented professionals, they tend to draw in the best breakfast danishes, cookies, chocolates, etc.... and they share! Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 01:58 pm:    We used to have to remind our interior designers "you can move the partitions...but the columns have stay." Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 02:40 pm:    Another argument for Interior Designers to list colors and finishes on ID Drawings and let the spec handle the performance and installation requirements: Our architectural practice is made up of mostly very large medical projects. Right now, I am wrapping up design dedvelopment this month on a completely typical example project where 100% CD's are due next April (if the schedule holds). They will be reviewed by the state with permits hopefully in spring/early summer 2010 and construction starting (hopefully) shortly thereafter. Say steel tops out the beginning of 2011. Actual procurement of interior finish materials by the subs who won their respective bids will be in late 2011. With a schedule like that, how many of all those hundreds of products will still be available with the same name, model number, color and pattern? Good Representatives for the manufacturers will help us sort things out, but in many cases, the most valuable tool will turn out to be the actual samples we (hopefully) kept so that we can visually match the original selections. From that perspective, updating 3 or 4 finish schedule pages in the Drawings makes far more sense than issuing a couple dozen revised spec Sections. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 259 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 03:42 pm:    Another good reason to see the data sheets is on a project a while back where I read the small print on a particular product data sheet and found that the recommended maintenance for a floor tile was damp mop cleaning only. This particular floor tile was originally going to be used in a part of the hospital that would receive a deeper cleaning method than damp mopping. When I brought it to the attention of the ID, they ended up changing the product to another one. I think it's interesting to hear that other firms do detailed finish schedules ... where I work, we do too but an owner's rep for a recent project was whining to the PA that "nobody" does that and it locks in manufacturers, thereby raising the cost of the materials (according to him) ... even though we also had equals listed in the respective sections that he had problems with. My take on that is that if we identify the manufacturer, model number, and color choices in the finish schedule (or spec as the case may be), we are giving contractors the information they need to price a project instead of them saving afterwards that they only priced standard colors and anything else would be an additional cost. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 93 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 04:21 pm:    Good point Steven. I have been bitten by the "discontinued" jaws on projects that spanned several years. Colors and patterns come and go. I managed many spec sections to document changes. An alternate to the schedules on drawings is a standalone spec of finishes schedules and colors. Prior to MF04, I plugged a section into Division 1. MF04 has potential places in Division 09 for such schedules. Personally, I would rather carry around a set of letter size sheets than large drawing sheet(s), although 1/2-size sets are OK. Jay Reyhons, NCIDQ, IIDA (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 04:18 pm:    The reason that many interior designers, myself included, post the finish schedule on the finish plan is that the contractor NEVER gives out the whole drawing set. So when the installers have the one page they were givin, it has all of the information tht they need. Also as others have mentioned it is alot easier to update one drawing sheet with a schedule rather then potentially multiple spec sections. I would also like to add that as a certified professional interior designer I am offended at some of the comments posted. Particularly those calling interior designers "specialty consultants". How unprofessional. The design community has changed in the past 100 years. It is time you catch up with the rest of the world or retire. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 815 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 06:14 pm:    I also have a history of working on VERY large health care projects that (more importantly) tend to have 3 to 5 year construction schedules, which almost guarantees that anything you select at the time the project goes to bid will not be in existance when the job is built out, unless the contractor orders and stores everything. (and I've worked on one project where they did that, assuming that the storage cost would be offset by the lower prices by buying earlier, but that's a different issue). One way I've always handled the interiors "issue" is to have a Division 1 section that is the listing for all things in the project that have a color or texture. The section is called something like "Color and Material Standards" and then every other spec section is referenced back to it. I've worked in a few offices where there is a very complete color schedule at the beginning of Division 09 that sort of serves this purpose, but the Division 1 section lists the color of everything: from concrete samples to metal finishes, to ceiling tiles. there are a couple of advantages to this: one, it allows the architect and/or interior designer to look at the entire scope of finishes all at once, much like looking at project color boards; and two, if the materials change, then only the one section gets reissued. (and on very large projects, it may be reissued 3 or 4 times). On large institutional projects, a finish schedule can get extremely complicated, and there may easily be 3 to 5 colorways being used on the entire project. I don't think there is an easy way to deal with this only using schedules. once you get past a certain size or complexity, some of the typical ways of transmitting information just get too cumbersome. For example -- how useful is a "Finish Schedule" that runs to 80 pages? Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 320 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 12:14 am:    This is an interesting discussion, one I have been having with our interiors people for more than a decade. As a specifier, I want to put everything about a product (work result) in its section, but they want just about everything in the finish schedule. To me, it seems it would be easier for the carpet sub, for example, to look in one place and see all requirements, instead of having to look in two places. Isn't communication with the contractor more important than our convenience? I tried to develop a schedule that could be broken into pieces. It would remain intact until bidding documents were issued, when each piece would be inserted at the end of the appropriate spec section. I find it difficult to have a single schedule that works for all the interior finish materials, as they all have different characteristics. If it were kept simple it wouldn't be too bad, but the interiors people keep adding things to the schedule, to the point there isn't much left to say in the spec section. They also try to keep adding things to the schedule, like toilet partitions. And why not? They do come in colors. The advantage of a single schedule of finish materials during design is obvious. But does it really make it easier for bidding or construction? Does a single sub handle ceramic tile, ceiling tile, carpet, VCT, wall protection, etc.? If it does make sense, why not keep expanding it? I tried Marc's approach, but it isn't foolproof; if someone changes the carpet they might change more than the color, so the specs would no longer agree. I eventually got to the same point as Wayne, "Interiors select products by brand name/ manufacturer/ distributor/ face size/ thickness/ color/ pattern/ etc that have inherent attributes...I finally realized that if the designer selected Shaw carpet tile BLAH-BLAH in color blah, all the necessary attributes were inherent in the product brand name." But is that not true of most products that come in a box? If I name a door operator or a joint sealant or even a wood window by make and model in the same way, are not all the attributes known? I can't help but visualize just a long "finish" schedule and not much in the way of specifications. A benefit, as William notes, is that it's much easier to change. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 899 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 07:52 am:    OK, I'll stick my neck out, so be kind-- To summarize and focus all our comments is there, in the normal run of things, a viable solution like this: All interiors materials will be specified in the proper Specifications Sections. In lieu of the litany of material attributes listed in MasterSpec [for example] where specific manufacturer and products can be established they will be listed in the specifications. Each appropriate specifications Section will carry this provision [properly numbered]— 2.03 LOCATIONS A. Specific locations of specified products, systems and the various associated colors and finishes are indicated, by the corresponding “Type” designators, on the drawings. To complete this system, each different “type” [by manufacturer, type, style, construction, etc.] of the material would be given [in the specs] a distinct Type Designator [e.g., CP-4 Carpet; WC-3 Wall Covering]. The drawings would utilize these designators AND note the specific location[s] for that type of material AND the selected color/pattern to be used. A biased opinion is that this method simplifies the drawing schedule, and enhances the back-up information and legal parameters of the materials [to minimize haggling about product or installation] including all accessory material and related aspects of the material installation. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 94 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 11:11 am:    My experience has gone thus which started before fax machines. Manual drafting, the Cheif Draftsman, and Couriers were king. 1. Generic room finish schedules in the drawings in spreadheet format. Product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual. Project manual was typed on an IBM Selectric with correction ribbon. Camera ready copy printed with Gestetner. Just like at school. 2. Interior designers or project architects provided product data via copier with choices and attributes highlighted. Product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual. 3. Interior desiginer became more prevalent but continured to provide product data via copier with choices and attributes highlighted, most of the time. Product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual. 4. Computers arrive followed shortly by spreadsheet programs and database programs. 5. Room finish schedules migrate from the drawings to the project manual in spreadsheet format. Product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual. I eargly use a version of Fred Stitt's product attribute data capture forms for ID to complete. I complete Part 2 with form the completed forms. 6. CAD. Generic room finish schedules migrate back to drawings either by creating a spreadsheet in the drawings or inserting an Excel spreadsheet. I am still master of the product data in the project manual and product attribute capture forms. 7. Interior designers everywhere using an Excel spreadsheet to simply document their material design choices but contents of spreadsheets grow like Topsey as they add more and more information that traditionally was found in Part 2 of the spec section via my beautifully crafted product attribute capture forms. Not all Product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual. 8. Finally, interior designers render product brand names/manufacturer/distributor/attributes in project manual and and my beautifully crafted product attribute capture forms redundant by importing spreadsheets with everything into the drawings, including some Part 3 stuff. 9. Part 2 of the spec sections refers to the Finish Legend or Finish Material Legend or [user input] Schedule on the drawings Stuctural engineers adopt some of these concepts by specifying in the structural drawings general notes but do not totally render Division 03, 04, 05, and 06 sections redundant. Architect reads everything resulting in lots of cross referencing (say it once in the most logical location stuff). SE's do not seem to feel obligated to read what is left in the Architects Division 03, 04, 05, and 06 sections to coordinate project requirements with Architect's specs. In all fairness, some SE's review/comment/revise our specs to be coordinated with their general notes. But, only if we give them our office masterspec. Although, some SE's have their own masters. Philip R. Carpenter AIA Senior Member Username: philip_carpenter Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 02:10 pm:    Like what Anne mentions above, the offices I have worked in have utilized the concept of a Div 1 section "Color & Materials" where all the finish colors/patterns/etc are listed in one place, categorized by their CSI section. I like this system because it frees up ‘soft’ decisions from the technical sections and allows the sections to be completed independent (well mostly independent…..) from selection of color/pattern/etc. Certainly not a pure system but it works as long as the process is monitored. Of course, ‘monitoring’ can sometimes be euphemistically AKA “herding cats”, eh? The larger problem I have found in coordinating products with ID staff is their penchant for always discovering and insisting on including new products without really understanding the technical potentials (upside/downside) these new products may create. One advantage of maintaining data control within the specs is that this profusion of new stuff can at least be reviewed. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 02:31 pm:    I like the idea of a "color and materials" schedule in one place, but I am not sure about Division One being the place. Recently it seems that the majority of our projects have a Division One provided through the Owner. They often wait well into the project to finalize their Division One, and we at best are recipients of a single giant PDF file. I do not want to have the Owner in the loop for simple revisions if possible, so we are placing schedules within (or after) individual Sections. We are also experimenting with the "Common Work Results" concept by placing schedules within Sections at the front of some Divisions. Philip R. Carpenter AIA Senior Member Username: philip_carpenter Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 02:52 pm:    Good point, I have often thought that the color/materials section residing in Div 1 was like a 'fish out of water'. In fact, for some projects Div 1 was in a seperate volume and it seemed 'lost' there. A previous posting mentioned this type of section per MF04 might be in Div 9 - could anyone expound on this option?? The obvious conflict would be that many non-division 9 products are included in the color/materials section. Perhaps this is why it wound up in Div 1. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 96 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 03:39 pm:    Phil, Section 09 06 00 Schedules for Finishes, page 09-2. MF04 says "schedules of items common to multiple titles in Division 09. schedules applicable to subject of one title should be included within the section." but we all will do what we want. MF04 also says "a schedule may be included on drawings, in a project manual, or a project book. Bob Woodburn, RA CSI CCS CCCA LEED AP Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 261 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 04:10 pm:    The US Government's United Facilities Guide Specifications (UFGS), edited with SpecsIntact word processing software, include a Section 09 06 90 COLOR SCHEDULE, which has places to list all the colors, patterns, textures etc. for all the exposed materials. Since both exterior as well as interior finishes are included, it could be a good in-house working summary, perhaps with the addition of manufacturers and actual product designations. UFGS never names specific manufacturers and products, so those are not included. But I think that kind of information is better placed on the Drawings instead, for many of the same reasons cited above. In virtually all of our interiors work, the manufacturer, product, color, texture and pattern etc. are scheduled on the drawings, and instead of repeating any of that, the spec simply says something like, "Manufacturers and products are scheduled or otherwise indicated on the Drawings." Sometimes I may add, "or if not indicated, shall be as selected by the Architect [or Owner, etc.]. Philip R. Carpenter AIA Senior Member Username: philip_carpenter Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2008 Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 07:50 pm:    Wayne, To show my ignorance (yeh yeh - it ain't hard to do...), I have the PRM and all that is on it's CD. I also have the MF04 Numbers & Titles document, however I suspect there is (are) a document(s) out there that I am missing - such as described in your response ("...page 09-2"). Our office recently purchased the latest MasterSpec. Is there a CSI document I am missing? Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 98 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, September 08, 2008 - 10:24 am:    Phil, I quoted from my softcover version of the unabridged MF04, complete with the keyword index. Wayne