Natatorium Architectural Concrete

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Author Message Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:01 pm:    We are designing a swimming pool structure for a hospital campus with a building envelope composed of cast-in-place concrete and curtainwall. The goal would be to expose the concrete in the pool room walls and overhead structural beam/roof windows. I am trolling for lessons learned and other pieces of received wisdom regarding concrete mixes, admixtures and post-applied sealers specific to swimming pool environmental condtions. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 298 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:10 pm:    I did a similar project some time back in a different firm so I don't have access to the specifics. Your biggest enemy is going to be the chlorine fumes. What ever you do, don't anodize the aluminum. The high performance kynar coating would be better, but I would verify that with PPG Duranar or Valspar. Same may be true for the steel structure. You may want to talk with Carboline - they make a lot of high performance coatings for corrosive environments. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 120 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:23 pm:    Thank you Richard. We are up to speed I think about the finishes for aluminum and ferrous metals. Carboline or Tnemec make good systems for the ferrous metals; get your best high performance organic coating (kynar); and if something wants to be stainless steel, start with 316 but consider some of the more specialized types. What I need to educate myself about is long term exposure of interior architectural concrete adjacent to the pool to avoid stains and similar surface defects developing. The team will want a high quality smooth finish. I often hear "Salk Institute" used as an adjective. We have finished several exterior architectural concrete projects with good results recently, so we have experience to grow from. The concern is what things you need to do differently within the natatorium. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:36 am:    As Richard stated chlorine fumes are a real concern. A key part of this is good ventalation so you need a knowledgable mechanical engineer. suggest that you engage a corrosion consultant. Stainless steel is not necessarily the solution if you have chlorine. On the other hand if you can get rid of the chlorine you might want to consider stainless steel reinforcing. While not common it is not that exotic. There are some chlorine free technologies for treating swimming pools. There are a number of things that can be done to help control corrosion. Some include galvanized rebar, fly ash in the concrete, corrosion inhibiting concrete admixtures, and cathodic systems, but you need a corrosion expert if you want to get value for your money. While specifications can help, you do not get the visual quality of the "Salk Institute", solely by means of specification language. The secrete is selecting a motivated contractor who knows how to produce high end concrete, have a schedule that is not rushed, and make mockups until everybody is happy. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 282 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:44 am:    Be careful with using fly ash and ground blast furnace slag in architectural concrete. While these products can provide concrete with long-term compressive strength exceeding that of concrete made from portland cement alone, and reduce concrete permeability with a corresponding increase in durability, their use also can result in a lack of uniformity of concrete color and a blotchy appearance. As Mark noted, samples and mockups are critical. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 06:23 pm:    Steve, Make sure you look into the variety of pool water treatments as well; there are some alternatives that can reduce the potential for corrosion in the structure. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:55 am:    Steve On page 83 of the Aug 18 edition of ENR there is a discussion of how another project dealt with chlorine odors from an indoor swimming pool. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 790 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 09:35 am:    Is there a swimming pool consultant on the project? If so, they might have some insight. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 813 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 02:55 pm:    the other sort of odd issue that comes up is in the rooms adjacent to the pool: I had a project where the exhaust ducts from the pool area were normal galvanized stock and when the warm (chlorinated) air from the pool condensed inside the ducts, it rusted them from the inside out. (and then they dripped on the floors and everything else). talk with your mechanical engineer about using stainless ducting for some distance from the pool area or some other resistive ducts. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 792 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 03:12 pm:    Also, be sure to isolate adjacent rooms physically from the pool chlorine. We had a client who wanted the whole area to open into the pool area - a complete nightmare from both the architectural and mechanical standpoints: finishes, materials (as Anne pointed out above) and climate were impossible to control and maintain. We had great difficulty explaining to the client why it was a bad idea. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 128 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 03:27 pm:    Anne, I remember seeing a photo of a wall mounted drinking fountain within a swimming pool space. The exterior was stainless steel with polished chrome fixtures and looked new with obvious daily cleaning. Open the service panel, and the chiller and other concealed bits were a brown lump on the floor of the cabinet. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 92 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 04:45 pm:    Lessons learned from the Village Square Swimming and Wave Pool in Calgary, Alberta Canada. Cold climate. For a chorine pool: Don't use a chlorine pool. Use salt water pool. Avoid using ferrous metal anywhere for anything(structural steel being the exception with the Tnemec or Caboline overcoats). Especially avoid ferrous metal that penetrate the pool deck. They will commence rusting very early. Use only stainless steel railing and hardware. Use Type 316 Stainless Steel. Chorine will attack 304 stainless steel, including door hardware. Control air leakage thru the concrete walls and curtain wall and their interface. Matthew W. Freeby, AIA, Leed AP (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 06:48 pm:    Cover the Basics: 1. Water Quality, Design your treatment system to respond to the source water and not compete with it. This may/may not result in a chlorine or salt recommendation, both have thier advantages & disadvantages. Select a high quality controller. 2. Air Quality, Both humidity and temp control. Vapor pressure (Boyle's Law) is critical, if you are off gassing pool water you are going to create issues that require solutions as opposed to avoiding the situation. 3. Chemical Isolation, make sure your pool treatment chemicals are isolated and vented to outside. take care to avoid infiltration of air from these rooms into other spaces. 4. Comply with ACI for corrosive environments, including form ties, rebar supports, etc. Coated reinforcing can be utilized, but should be avoided in areas which fall under the NEC 680 requirements as it is difficult to ground. 5. Discuss with your other consultants (MEP) regarding any embeds they are considering. Electrical boxes, fixtures, hangers will be also be affected. 6. The room being described seems acoustically bright, is this what. 7. Specify operator training and or commissioning on systems, including the design parameters used. Not a few problems are caused by an operator trying to economize on ventilation and not understanding the impact. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 610 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 10:07 pm:    Good Article on BCDNETWORK - "Diagnosing and Solving Problems in Natatoriums": http://www.bdcnetwork.com/article/CA6605050.html?nid=2073 Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 148 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 01:07 pm:    Thank you Jerome for the link to the article. FYI - His firm is a consultant on the subject project.