| Author |
Message |
Mark Gilligan SE, CSI
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 54
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |    |
I would appreciate some feedback.
How often do you use a separate specification section for concrete finishes and mockups and how often are these issues addressed in the Cast-In-place Concrete and Concrete Formwork specification sections?
What factors influence your decision? |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 651
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 12:25 pm: | |
If it's a very specialized finish (i.e. ground polished concrete, stained, etc.) it's in a separate section. If it's a standard finish (i.e. trowel, broom, etc.), I leave it in the CIP section. |
Jo Drummond
Senior Member
Username: jo_drummond_fcsi
Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 03:19 pm: | |
If I write the structural sections, which is usually, I put the finishes in with the formwork and concrete. If a structural engineers write their sections, I do a separate section for the finishes. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 771
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 03:23 pm: | |
if the finishes have to be done while the concrete is still green, then I consider them part of the structural work.
if the finishing comes later, or is part of an interiors project (ie, the structural slab is poured already) then I have a separate section. a lot of the staining, polishing and other decorative finishes are done near the end of the job after the slab has been used for staging.
the structural engineer is not going to have any idea about things like staining and polishing, and getting those put into a structural spec just isn't worth the effort to accomplish it. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 267
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 06:48 pm: | |
I concur with Anne's observation. We have separated out "architectural concrete" finishes for cast-in-place and pre-cast finishes that require greater attention from the those who care about how it is going to look. Generally these are finishes on vertical surfaces, and we (or at least I) haven't thought a lot about horizontal finishes except where they are considered "decorative" pavement. Stains, sealer/hardners, dyes, and polishing are apt to be done long after the concrete guys are done.
When this work applies to interior floor areas (not exerior paving or walkway areas) I have begun to specify this stuff in Division 09 "Finishes" (even the sealer/hardener materials) with options for greater "design control" in terms of the Architect getting what he wants (not necessarily what the Engineer wants).
Where there may be "work results" places in Division 03 for this stuff, I really think the types of work results being sought are more like a floor finish than they are like a slab on grade concrete finish executed by a concrete sub. Colored concrete (where the coloring agent is mixed with the concrete) and colored shake-on hardener stuff must remain part of the responsibility of the people who place concrete and then float and trowel it. |
Mark Gilligan SE, CSI
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 04:57 am: | |
This question was in response to an internal discussion on how to address the architects concerns’ regarding finishes when the structural engineer authors the concrete specification sections. Coordinating these concerns has been problematic for a number of reasons including: architect’s lack of attention to concrete finishes, architect’s idiosyncratic descriptions of various finishes, the engineer’s reluctance to spend a lot of time coordinating something that does not deal with structural issues, and regrettably many engineers unfamiliarity with the variety of concrete finishes.
Some engineers see a Concrete Finishes specification section as an easy way to decouple our work from the architect’s. What they often forget is that there is still a need to coordinate. It is my belief that by eliciting input on finishes we can help the architect to focus on something that he needs to address. Of coarse this assumes that the architect appreciates the issues and is willing to focus on this issue.
The responses reflect my experience that concrete finishes for simple projects are typically addressed in 03200 and 03300. Finishes applied after the concrete hardens are not addressed in these sections.
When there are a variety of formed and or flat work finishes or where there are special provisions for samples or mockups I recommend a separate Concrete Finishes specification section. When these conditions exist it becomes difficult to edit the cast-in-place and formwork sections to everybody’s satisfaction. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 434
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 03:16 pm: | |
ASCC Education and Training Committee publishes a "Guide for Surface Finish of Formed Concrete : As-Cast Structural Concrete", that contains photo plates of various levels of finish. P1, P2, etc. My copy is a multi-generation photocopy from 1997 (I just ordered an update today).
Question: Anyone have successful experiences to share using this guide to specify finishes? Or a similar photo based approach? |
|
4specs.com Home Page