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Author Message Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 261 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 04:54 pm:    We have a project with interior 3-coat gypsum plaster walls and ceilings. Because the general contractor is behind schedule, the painter is trying to find a primer that can be applied to the plaster earlier than the end of the specified 30 day curing period. The painted suggested a primer/sealer by ICI Paints called Gripper; the data sheet states plaster must be cured at least 3 days before painting, and have a pH of 13 or lower. Does anyone have experience with this, or any similar product, on plaster? I am antsy about these claims, and about the performance of a primer, to say nothing of subsequent topcoats, on fresh plaster. I'd prefer to maintain the specified curing period, or at least until the plaster has reached 12% moisture content. I suggested the architect require that the paint manufacturer, contractor, and painter submit a certifiation that the primer and subsequent topcoats will not interfere with proper curing of the plaster, but once the scaffold is down that may not be worth a lot. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 500 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 09:27 pm:    Dave I'll ask my paint rep, he's been in the business for 30 yrs - a wealth of information on coatings and paint. BTW, we are no longer specifying ICI Dulux paint products, Akzo Nobel purchased the company in January and intends on breaking it up, discontinuing many of its products and reformulating the rest, this being the case honoring warranties may be questionable. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 868 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 09:52 am:    Dave, I've run into this before, too, and used a alkaline-tolerant primer. It was some time ago so I don't remember what was used, but there were no problems that I was aware of. Plus, paint technology has moved forward in that time. Acrylics, as I'm sure you know, are as a rule more tolerant of alkalinity than alkyds, so I probably wouldn't be too concerned. One possibility is to extend the cure time to seven days and require a litmus test. Helaine K. Robinson CSI CCS CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 353 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 10:01 am:    Got this from our local paint maven: The use of alkali resistant primers is acceptable practice and they perform just fine. The main focus is drying time and pH levels. PPG manufactures one as well, PermaCrete 4-603, however we ask for 7 days and also require the pH to be below 13. A pH of 13 (on a scale of 14) is very high. These primers are designed to perform on higher alkali substrates Ventilation and air exchange in addition to dehumidification (costly) will help drive off moisture faster and aid the curing process. The moisture content below 12% is another good measure, but most modern water base products are breathable and allow moisture to escape even after they are dry. Letters from manufacturers are usually not difficult to get as long as all parties.are agreed to the conditions and the applicator takes responsibility for following recommendations of the paint manufacturer. Let me know if you need any additional information. Bob Schrock CSI, CCPR PPG Industries Architectural Services 513-543-2555 513-242-9597 fax bob.schrock@ppg.com 4600 Reading Road Cincinnati, OH 45229 Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 10:21 am:    Jerome, I heard that same thing about ICI. In fact one of my best reps was with the company over 20 years and was let go in favor of someone with absolutely no experience! Go figure! Two of my other reps used to be with ICI but left last year to go with other paint companies. Since my current paint spec was based on ICI, I'm in the process of revising it to another company. Randall A Chapple, AIA, SE, CCS, LEED AP Senior Member Username: rachapple Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 10:35 am:    I believe that ICI was recently purchased by International Protective Coatings. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 10:44 am:    International Paint is owned by Akzo Nobel. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 808 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 11:16 am:    We dropped ICI from our specs about 2-1/2 years ago, due to their lack of interest in servicing us, their dearth of current information and mainly because of them flat out lying to us and trying to mislead us. Rather abrupt ending. We're not overjoyed with International, either. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 501 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:09 pm:    Richard I use PPG as my base manufacturer, I've found their products and support excellent. I have added Colorwheel to replace ICI, Colorwheel is now owned by COMEX, one of the largest cement manufacturers (Mexico based)and because of the new ownership Colorwheel has brought in former reps from other manufacturers and provided a decent support network. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 502 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:33 pm:    Dave, et al, if this is gypsum why is there an alkalinity problem? Alkalinity problems are from cement curing? Can we look at this again? If its gypsum why not use a gypsum board paint primer? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 503 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:54 pm:    Randall From Akzo Nobel website: "Amsterdam, the Netherlands, January 2, 2008 — The boards of Akzo Nobel N.V. (“Akzo Nobel”) and Imperial Chemical Industries PLC (“ICI”) are pleased to announce that the Scheme of Arrangement has now become effective in accordance with its terms. It is intended that the listing of ICI Shares on the Official List will be cancelled and that ICI Shares will cease to be admitted to trading on the London Stock Exchange from 8:00 a.m. (London time) on 3 January 2008. ICI Shares were suspended from listing and dealings on the London Stock Exchange at 5:00 p.m. (London time) on 19 December 2007." Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 03:12 pm:    ICI is alive and well in the West, installing new retail stores in the region. My sources inform me ICI coatings will continue to be in the market. ICI recently issued their LEED Compliant Product Guide for Fall/Winter 2007-2008. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 504 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 05:25 pm:    From my PPG guy: For new gypsum plaster surfaces the normal recommendation is for a 30 day cure however, if the plaster is hard to the touch and surface dry once the plaster is cured to a near-neutral pH and has reached sufficient cohesive strength to resist the film delaminating from the fresh plaster surfaces it may be possible to apply the primer sooner depending on the ambient drying conditions and relative humidity of the rooms. Small field trials may be used to determine if the plaster is able to be primed prior to the 30 day cure period. David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 104 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 04:59 am:    This information is very timely for a project I am working on. Paint failures can be so disruptive to a facility. Thanks 4-specs group. ICI had a great rep in NE Ohio for quite a few years. He was always available for assistance with my painting specifications and always made it a point to visit my projects. He gave ICI a good name, although he was replaced in the Akzo-Nobel buy-out. I tend to follow the reps when this type of thing happens. I don't think corporations always realize what a valuable resource they have in their people on the street. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 505 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 06:36 am:    David Looks like you can't sleep either - well in my case I'm up early. We tend to write specs highlighting one manuf, but listing equal manufacturers, usually at least three, the manuf we highlight is usually based on the reps. We crave attention and we expect the reps to service our needs by making sure our specs are up to date. When new products become avail we want to know about them, when formulations are changed we expect to be informed. We ask a lot from our reps - if there is a problem on another project we want to hear about it. We send spec sections out to reps regularly for review and we advise them that if they send us their canned specs in return - well its not a pretty sight our reaction. In return for this we reward our loyal hardworking reps with a subscription to a mini-Dodge Report that we produce and update bi-monthly. This report lists all our current projects and what stage they are in from our office bidding on specs to post construction. The list also includes the Architect's name, PM name and phone; the same info is provided for the GC and Developer if we know it. It helps that we have over 80 projects listed at a time - what can I say we are small but we produce a lot of work, most of which are large projects. And the response we get back from the chosen ones who receive "The List" is typically adulation - esp. since we address each list to the individual rep, not a mass mailing and if we can highlight jobs that we esp. think that rep should chase. We have been maintaining our List now for 4 years and the results...well if a rep doesn't get updated they are at my door salivating and when they are updated they are very appreciative - this is the one of the ways I keep my specs up to date - its a chore, but it does pay off. Many times the reps will forward the List to the people who pull their chains and I get calls or email from the Regional and National people thanking me for keeping their local guys informed - one hand washes the other as my Dad would say. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 809 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 10:07 am:    Sherwin-Williams has "PrepRite Masonry Primer, B28W300", specifically notes use on "fresh plaster" with 30-day cure time, but have note on data sheet about 7-day applications. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 26 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 10:56 am:    Regarding ICI reps leaving ICI in the recent past. With the takeover by Akzo-Nobel I am sure there was uncertainty in the rank and file at ICI accompanied by the collateral psychological impact, it is not unreasonable to expect some reps will move on to other paint companies or leave the field altogether. Hence the replacements (I feel a movie coming on). This should not be confused with being laid-off or replaced. ICI is alive and well in the Pacific NW. PNW has a great ICI rep in the mold described by David Wyatt above. He is much easier to reach than the Sherwin Williams rep who seems to avoid face time or phone conversation time, but will show up at conventions promising to drop by the next time he/she is in town. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 506 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 11:16 am:    Wayne its good to hear that ICI is alive and well out west, not the case in Florida. It seems like many of the 'smaller' paint companies are being bought up and absorbed these days, SW has purchased Flexbon Paints and closed all their stores, SW bought Duron and closed all their stores, SW bought MAB and did the same, my sources at those manufacturers tell me that Flexbon, Duron, and MAB paints will cease to exist by next year, which is too bad, esp. for Flexbon a great Florida formulated paint; for SW I guess this is how they grow their business these days. All the reps at ICI in Florida have left to work with other paint manufacturers... Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 259 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 11:42 am:    Wayne, It appears that the ICI in the PNW hasn't suffered the fate as down here on SoCal. As I mentioned in my reply to Jerome, my terrific ICI rep was layed off & replaced with someone with virtually no paint experience. In addition two former good ICI reps with lots of experience left - one is working for Dunn Edwards & the other is with Vista Paint, both very good regional paint companies with whom we do a lot of work.