Finish Carpentry versus Architectural...

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Author Message Susan McClendon Senior Member Username: susan_mcclendon Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:30 am:    I would like to hear what people consider the difference between 062000 and 064000. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:39 am:    All I know about it is what is stated in Masterspec’s evaluations, but I like to consider finish carpentry as woodwork that you might see in a catalogue or have the contractor buy right off the shelf. It’s the kind woodwork you might find at Home Depot. Architectural woodwork is woodwork that you want fabricated by a woodworking shop as per the architect’s drawings. I don’t believe there is necessarily a cost savings for specifying finish carpentry. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 360 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 11:02 am:    I went to school with someone who asked why all the good quality carpenters come from Finland. Anyway, when it's mostly field applications --cutting and fitting running trim, installing shelving and panelling, etc. -- I use Finnish Carpenters and Finish Carpentry. When it's mostly shop fabricated stuff -- casework, complicated patterned panelling, etc. -- I use Architectural woodwork. Incidentally, I seldom write both sections on the same job. I'll pick one or the other, and put it all there. And about 80% of the time, 064000 wins out. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 655 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 01:13 pm:    I typically use both sections, and make the distinction as follows: finish carpentry is for linear items that are field fabricated and applied. this typically would be door frames, window stools, wood base, interior window trim and sometimes shelving in back of house areas. Architectural woodwork I use for casegoods, anything that we want an AWI certified shop to construct, and anything that is shop fabricated and finished, and mostly just "installed" at the job site. I do paneling in this section, because for the most part, the paneling I do is book or slip matched, veneer wood that is blueprint fabricated to fit a particular space and shop finished. I also dump things like stone countertops into this section, again because they are fabricated as part of the casegoods. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 01:46 pm:    I like to keep the number of sections on a project to a minimum - I have to side with George; although Anne presents a good argument for using both. Julie Brown Senior Member Username: jkbrown Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 02:08 pm:    I use Finish Carptentry 062000 for exterior finish carpentry only. Exterior trellises, trim, etc. The finish work I do not want a rough carpenter to do. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 252 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 04:42 pm:    I basically agree with Anne's distinctions except I go a bit further. I think of Finish Carpentry as field fabricated with stock pieces (such as mouldings) that will received a field-applied opaque finish. Items include standing and running trim including door frames and trim and "utility" shelving with paint finish. Where the control of a shop environment is desired, I will specify the item as Architectural Woodwork. This includes hardwood standing and running trim with transparent finish. While I realize it is possible to get these intallled and finished in the field, better results are usually obtained with shop finishing. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 05:15 pm:    There's really only a subtle difference here in much of this discussion - and the break between field work for FC and shop fab for AW is pretty consistent throughout. It just occured to me as I was reading this that maybe a solution would be a 0605xx for "Common Work Results for Finish Carpentry and Architectural Woodwork" that would identify those items that are arguably both. For example, solid surfacing. As countertops (custom countertops and not repetitive vantity tops) it is AW but as window stools it is FC. In that case, maybe solid surfacing is a common work result. We do a lot of projects where we have running trim, panelling, doors, casework and who-knows what else all in the same area, and all needing species, cut and finish match. So, the idea of a common work results mockup and other QA language is appealing, especially where you are likely to get multiple suppliers/fabricators/installers regardless of where or how you specify it. But I'm intrigued by common work results, so maybe that bias is showing. And besides, it's Friday afternoon for me because I'm taking tomorrow off... you guys solve the problem and let me know on Monday, ok? Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 656 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 05:39 pm:    one of the reasons I made the distinctions is because in my project area in the northwest, the finish carpentry items were typically done by the contractor's own forces and for the casework items we were much more restrictive about who could bid on the project and what their experience was. So, for the most part, those items that might have a restricted bid list or prequalification were put into the Architectural Woodwork section. its not very typical in the northwest to have one fabricator do all the interior woodwork -- such as casegoods, lineal goods, wood doors, paneling and the like. it seemed to work better in my market to divide up the specs according to how it was most likely to be bid and fabricated rather than deal with one inclusive section that was bid with exclusions. Susan McClendon Senior Member Username: susan_mcclendon Post Number: 70 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 03:41 pm:    Do people use AWI and WI quality standards for Finish Carpentry? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 540 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 03:54 pm:    AWI predominantly; WI when I have work in California. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 657 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 05:10 pm:    I have the same answer as Ron: AWI typically and we require the inspection program on every project. WI in California and Nevada. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 12:02 pm:    You can also use WI in Arizona. In my firm we are also going to use WI's inspection program for wood doors. We've been experiencing some issues, especially with natural finished doors and WI can inspect them before they are installed. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 800 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 05:33 pm:    I specify all interior woodwork, including standing and running trim, in the Architectural Woodwork section. The only non-AWI work likely to be on our project would be utility shelving, and possibly some standing and running trim. (Even that is likely a woodworker's item, since it's probably poplar or something.) Exterior woodwork I specify as finish carpentry, because it will be boards installed by a carpenter, with a job-site table saw and chop saw. Our office master, though having strong Masterspec roots, has evolved this way. Requirements are based on AWI, as we do limited work in CA. In the past, I've used AWI standards there, too, without any real difficulty. (Though not AWI certification.) The standards are not that different, and any decent shop can fabricate to meet either, I'd think. Christopher E. Grimm, CSI, CCS, LEED®-AP, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 102 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:52 pm:    For Susan's second question, I think 062000 FC is not typically used for AWI or WI quality standards work or other custom items, but rather it is for off-the-shelf trim and similar items. I think the degree of customization is the primary distinction between that level 2 section and 064000 AW. Both can have interior and exterior, and a project could also have both types if complex enough to warrant it. - correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't have my MF04 book or MS Supporting Docs handy.