| Author |
Message |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 334
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 04:56 pm: |    |
Hardware Consultants? We have an occasional internal debate about not using one for smaller projects. Of course most of our projects are larger and complex, but sometimes we get that easier project with a tighter budget where the project manager considers doing it ourselves.
My take: Maybe twenty years ago when I was a real architect and the world was a simpler place, I would be comfortable selecting and specifying hardware. Now, however, as complex as even the simplest hardware is these days, I feel I no longer have the expertise to do it, and I certainly don’t have time as a full time specifier to acquire the knowledge to become a hardware expert.
So here’s a nearing-end-of-week poll for all you specifiers:
1. Do you ever write hardware specs?
2. If so, under what circumstances? What size and complexity of project?
3. If you write hardware specs fairly often, what training and experience do you (or whoever your in house hardware expert is) have that makes you feel comfortable doing it?
I have read the archived discussion Archived Hardware Consultant and I know a half dozen or so of you folks who regularly post here answered in 2003. If so, how has your answer changed in the last four years, if at all? |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 751
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 05:30 pm: | |
1. Yes.
2. Small projects, and easier ones.
3. School of hard knocks.
Just because I'm writing the hardware spec, doesn't mean I don't get help, as with any other technically challenging section. A meeting with one of the excellent hardware reps in my area helps a lot. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 872
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 06:11 pm: | |
1.2. Yes/No. I specify hardware on very small simple projects. Large complex projects are best left to professionals. I have enough work trying to write the rest of the specs.
Our favorite hardware consultant reviews submittals and does a punch list. He operates every door in the project to make sure that it is working properly.
Here in the Northwest, there is no shortage of people to write hardware specs. Most of the large distributors have AHCs on staff as well as product reps will write specs. That said, we tend to prefer the professional independent door hardware specifiers.
3. I got my training while working for a 18 months as a hardware product representative. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 205
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 06:35 pm: | |
My answer has not changed from 4 years ago.
1. Yes.
2. Small simple projects, usually with not more than 10 or so hardware sets. Same reason as David Axt states.
3. Having reviewed sets written by AHC's for our projects, and asking them questions whenever I don't understand something. |
Ruppert Rangel, AIA CCS
Senior Member
Username: rangel
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 06:49 pm: | |
1. Yes, on all projects.
2.My hardware section includes many performance based defaults, so in most cases I don't need to list specific model numbers, left hand, left reverse, parallel arm closers, etc. for each specific opening. I regularly call for advice, especially with electronic devices. Complexity can be as few as 3 hardware types to as many as 35.
3. Learned by doing...... and making mistakes. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 592
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 07:24 pm: | |
no, and I specifically exclude the hardware from what I say that I'll do on a job. I should mention that my projects are large, complicated, and have lots of security things built into them. I know enough about hardware to ask questions, but that's about it. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 05:11 pm: | |
I avoid it like the plague. It's like the housekeeper - "I don't do windows." I don't do hardware. I also really dislike doing elevator specs, but I am occasionally 'forced' to (just the hydraulic/roped/MRL variety). |
Ron Beard CCS
Senior Member
Username: rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 09:45 pm: | |
1 and 2: I write all hardware sections big or small but never the hardware sets. ... actually very seldom for very small projects.
3: Like the others have stated, exposure is the key to adding to one’s experience. I may not be an expert in any given field but you can often “sense” something is not quite right and you pursue what you don’t know. Remember it’s what you don’t know that usually comes and bites you on the backside. I have developed my own “master” for each of the AHC’s that I use and that adds to my enlightenment One of the major advantages of engaging an independent, paid-fee consultant is that they not only write the hardware sets but also check the shop drawings and perform the field QA.
As a side question, how many of you include the hardware requirements and hardware sets within the entrance door, all-door, or curtain wall sections rather than lumping everything into 08710. Many AHC’s like to keep all the hardware in 08710 so they get to purchase all the hardware items. But I like to keep all the responsibility with a single source. If the door doesn’t operate properly, I only have to look to one source. |
Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA
Senior Member
Username: don_harris
Post Number: 144
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:53 am: | |
1. Yes
2. Smaller projects and for mechanical locks only. As soon as a wire is involved, I pass it off to the Consultant we use for most projects.
3. Made many mistakes years ago and learned from them. Lots of reading. Lots of talking to AHC guys and gals.
Ron: The AHC I use puts it all in 087100. I know it can create some procurement issues, but just because the storefront hardware is in 087100 doesn't mean the storefront guy can't buy it and still have your single source for the storefront. It really is a CM/GC scoping issue. |
Mitch Miller, AIA ,CSI, CCS, MAI
Senior Member
Username: m2architek
Post Number: 119
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:57 am: | |
I specify hardware on small projects that may have similar openings that have been specified before(recently). It may vary, however the consultant I use is very proficient and he doesn't mind doing even the smaller jobs. Most can be andled through electronic file sharing and a phone call, so it isn't a big issue time wise. I never do large projects, the consultant comes to the office.
Our hardware consultant reviews submittals.
I learned by doing, and living with the mistakes. |
Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: presbspec
Post Number: 134
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:10 am: | |
I would do hardware only on the most simple of projects. If the Client (architect) hasn't hired or contacted a AHC for the project, I call my favorite AHC for every project no matter how large or small.
I used to do hardware 20 years ago, but it has gotten more complicated and I have enough to track with the rest of the project. why do something that would take me a week to research when I can get an expert to do it in a couple of days (or less). |
John McGrann
Senior Member
Username: jmcgrann
Post Number: 71
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:15 am: | |
1. Yes.
2. Most projects.
3. Learned by doing, making (and sometimes paying for) mistakes, over several decades.
Like David Axt I prefer my hardware consultants to be independent. I've experienced occasional problems in the past with wired specs and some occasional poor service from AHC’s in the employ of manufacturers and distributors. I’ve experienced at least one significant E&O issue that in my mind reached a very unsatisfactory conclusion due in part to the lack of independence between the consultant and a manufacturer.
My last experience with a true independent AHC was with a gent from the Pacific Northwest who did a wonderful job, but that was on a project with a schedule and fee structure that could afford the travel budget. I would very much like to find someone like that in the Middle Atlantic region. |
T.A. Gilmore, AIA, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: tgilmore
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
As a rule of thumb, I draw the boundaries based on whether the project has exit stairs. Most of our work is multifamily, and our townhouses and most community centers are simple enough that I can edit the Hardware Section as a performance spec: “if it swings, hinge it; if it exceeds these dimensions, start adding more hinges, etc.” This also helps us deal with our DB projects where our builder/client wants to use the unnamed low-end residential hardware manufacturers who don’t work with AHCs.
I don’t do hardware schedules, and I discourage our project teams from attempting one in house. |
W. Dean Walker, AIA, CCS, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: wdwalkerspecs
Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
No. I maintain a listing of AHC Hardware Consultants I have worked with and E-mail the list to my clients. I update the listing frequently and monitor the results.
I gave up writing them many years ago when they started becoming too complicated.
The consultant meets with the Architect on his schedule, not mine. |
Bill Morley
Senior Member
Username: billm
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 12:09 pm: | |
1. Yes, I write hardware specs and hardware schedules, and generally enjoy doing it.
2. Whether the projects are large or small isn't as big an issue as whether the project is complex. And 'complex' is usually defined as "Owner's access control system".
3. Unless the project involves complicated (and often unresolved) Owner-furnished access control systems, I don't consider door hardware to be "rocket science". Like most of the responses above, it's "learn by doing/reading/calling people". And I do occasionally borrow some text from previous hardware consultant's sections. (sssssh)
The PA's here probably prefer to work with outside vendors/consultants because those guys don't demand as much input/information about the project's needs. I make the PA's think about stuff by asking questions about how they want doors to function. Consultants usually just make assumptions to save time, including assuming that the PA will review/revise the first draft of their spec, which they don't. As a result we get kickplates on both sides of every door (or some such crap).
I haven't ventured very far into the 'keying' matters. I think keying, and masterkeying, and the various levels is "rocket science" (i.e., beyond my ability). I usually require the contractor to coordinate with the Owner prior to harware submittal to determine the keying schedule. That seems to be working. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 230
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 08:18 pm: | |
I spent the better part of my career producing door and hardware schedules and specifications - right up until I left my former firm in CT to relocate to PHX, then Southern Calif.
We use a Hardware Consultant to write the hardware specifications in my current firm, mainly because as a full time spec writer, I don't have the time to do it - plus they do it for free.
The industry has changed so much in the past 7 -10 years, that I don't think I could ever get back into it. |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED™ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 634
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
1. An emphatic NO.
2. See above
3. See above; we have an in-house hardware-trained spec writer with all the credentials. We also use 2 different independent hardware consultants who rep manufacturers: one more local and one more national. Most of the PA's prefer to use the local rep. Both are good, responsive, and understand the changing world of finish hardware, security, and building access systems. |
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 224
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:18 am: | |
1.2.3. same as almost everybody else. small jobs and a prayer.
I just had a job (at my old firm) where the firm got a hardware supplier to spec the job and then thru some method the drawings/schedule did not match and now the supplier is asking for a bunch of $$ and the architect cant find the transmittals that show when the final drawings were delivered to the consultant/supplier.
Lesson learned: If you are going to play with fire keep track of the transmittals. |
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