Table of Contents and listing number ...

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Author Message Tracy Van Niel Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 199 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:07 pm:    Just curious how other firms do their table of contents ... do you include the number of pages for each section or is it simply a list of the sections included under each division heading? Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 388 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:10 pm:    Include number of pages. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 783 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:10 pm:    No offense but it is busy work if you ask me. Why do you need to list the number of pages? I have occasionally been required to do this so I unhappily comply. It's always a moving target since page counts change. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 479 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:11 pm:    No number of pages, as you know. And unless it's automatic, it's just one more thing to coordinate or forget to change. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 633 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:21 pm:    I number the pages, every time, all the time. Its not a makework task and provides a required check that you actually have all the pages of the section. If you count them anyway, why not write the number in. Just as easy as making a check mark. So many times it has saved consultants from missing information when a page has been left out for some reason. My project manuals are typically 2 volumns that number 800 pages per volume on average. Since I use the page count as a check off notation that I have all the pages, it only adds a few minutes that it takes to input the page numbers after doing it. If I did not do page numbers, no real time would be saved since one has to look to see that all the pages are there anyway. William Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:24 pm:    I don't include the number of pages per section in the table of contents. I believe this practice dates way back to the 50s, 60s or 70s. I know some government entities still require this antiquated practice (i.e. the State of Kansas, where most things are antiquated.) The original idea, as I have been told, was to allow one to compare each section's quantity of pages with the number of pages listed in the table of contents in order to ensure one had a complete project manual. There was also the argument that a bidder could say they didn’t receive all the pages unless the bidding documents told them how many pages were suppose to be included. However, the instructions to bidders should clearly state that it is the bidders responsibility to use a complete set of bidding documents. Having the table of contents Include the number of pages within each section seems to be contrary to the “say it once” concept. I simply assume people can read END OF SECTION at the end of each section to verify that they have all the pages between the first and last pages. Mitch Miller, AIA ,CSI, CCS, MAI Senior Member Username: m2architek Post Number: 100 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:29 pm:    I DO list the number of pages. It acts as a reference to be sure all of the documents are there. I even number pages 1+xx when I have attachments, such as geo-tech reports. It is done as the project manual is put together, and is not just busy work. Russ Hinkle, AIA, CCS Senior Member Username: rhinkle Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:35 pm:    Listing the pages numbers for me is always automatic. Sidebar. Talking about busy work - Does anyone still include a list of drawings in the specifications? 5 years ago when I started doing spec's I asked why do we do this when it is on the drawing cover sheets. "Because we alwasy have" seemed to be the answer. I stopped doing it and nobody has complained, yet. The CSI MOP does not include this. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 784 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:46 pm:    Russ, Occasionally I am asked to make a list of Drawings in the specs. Again, it is busy work. It is hard enough for the architects to keep a correct list on the cover sheet, let alone me repeat the information. As far as page numbers go, it is hard enough to make sure that the correct section numbers and titles are in the Table of Contents. I typically have the project administrative assistant check the table of contents to the sections I have printed out of received from consultants. The assistants alway catch something. It's nice to have a second set of eyes. BTW, I also break with CSI PageFormat and put "Page 8 of 14" at the bottom of my pages. That way the Contractor knows that he is missing some pages if the last page he has is Page 8. Mitch Miller, AIA ,CSI, CCS, MAI Senior Member Username: m2architek Post Number: 101 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:55 pm:    I DO NOT list the drawings in the Project Manual, unless absolutely required by the Owner. This already exists on the Contract Documents, listed on the drawing cover page. Say it once. Ruppert Rangel, AIA CCS Senior Member Username: rangel Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 02:57 pm:    Yes, it may seem to be busy work, but I include pages because it gives me one last review of the complete spec when compiling page numbers. It is surprising how may errors I catch with this last review. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:00 pm:    I'm with David and Ronald on this one. Every one of my sections already has its own individual consecutive numbering from the beginning to the end of the individual section and the last page of the section always includes the words “END OF SECTION”. Repeating the numbering of each section on the Table of Contents would require constantly remembering to recheck the numbers on the Table of Contents every time I update the section and it serves no real useful purpose. It does, however, add one more potential for errors to appear in my documents and I tend to favor reducing that potential as much as possible. I avoid the list of drawings as well. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 634 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:16 pm:    We have a specific list of drawings document in he specification. Too many times we get requests from an owner for a document that lists the drawings and latest date for their legal closing with an investor or bank, whatever. We also get requests for Owners that our drawings cover sheet page list drawings of all consultants, even those not in our contract who may print and revise information separately. Thus, we use our list of drawings as a tool. It is the official list covering our drawings and those of our consultants, and when a drawing is revised, the list is revised with the lastest dates. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 294 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:32 pm:    I agree with Ruppert and William, I always number the pages and get very frustrated when the MEP's don't. I only include a List of Drawings if provided by the Architect, typically this is not the case. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 221 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:40 pm:    Showing number of pages in the table of contents is busy work. Each page has a number, and the last page says "end of section" so it's obvious if a page is missing. I can't imagine anyone counting the pages to see if they're all there; instead, they would just look at the page numbers. Similarly, putting "page x of y" provides no additional information. I suppose you could follow the practice used for drawings - list every page of every section. That way you would know for sure that you had everything. Or maybe you should number drawings the way spec pages are numbered - A-001 of A-100, A-101 of A-100 - oops! Gee, maybe that won't work after all… Going one step further (and this is one of my favorite peeves) I do not list unused Divisions followed by "not used". Just as I do not list the entire list of MasterFormat section numbers and indicate "not used" after the ones that aren't used. Or all of the article titles in a section with "not used" after the ones that aren't used. Or all of the colors of the rainbow, dates of the year, or reference standards that aren't used, or consultants that aren't used, or… John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 644 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:40 pm:    I gave up using the number of pages in the contents some years ago. I still check (or someone does) that each section has all its pages, and there is a section printed for every listing in the TOC and vice-versa just prior to repro. Thus, that QC step is there without the drudgery of adding the number of pages. I pretty much got sick of it when one would section changed at the very last minute, getting a new version slipped while it was sitting there on the counter ready for reproduction. Then, I'd have to redo the TOC as well. One too many times. Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 67 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:56 pm:    Sheldon, I've actually seen sets of drawings that have sheet numbers as, for example, “A2.17 of 93 Sheets" where the 93 sheets is the total of all civil, landscape, architectural, structural, mechanical, plumbing, and electrical sheets. Old habits die real hard. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 480 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:03 pm:    Well, you know, we've always done it that way! "Tradition...tradition (sang Tevya)" And we've NEVER done it the other way! Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:07 pm:    I NEVER list the number of pages unless required by a client's standard format or request. Even then, I do not list them until we reach an actual Permit or Bid Submittal. Our format always includes an "End of Section", so there is no issue of dropping pages. My main reason is that the page number really doesn't provide useful information (unless you want to know precisely how big the print order is). I find that the page count can change due to minor editing changes, so you would need to re-check constantly. We do very large projects that often have a ten year life span. In that time, you might have someone spend 40 hours just counting the pages. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:04 pm:    Regarding including a list of drawings in the specs ... if that was the case, shouldn't we also have a list of spec sections on the drawings? Just kidding. Although it becomes busy work, we justify including a list of drawings in the TOC as we are then able to provide that as a reference to the list of drawings for inclusion in the owner-contractor contracts. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 04:36 pm:    I never list number of pages in the TOC. There is no reasonable justification for this at all. I have been writing specs for 10 years, and am in my mid 40s. I would be interested in knowing if there is any correlation between those that do include numbers of pages, those that do not, experience and age... Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 05:08 pm:    We have one county GSA client we do a lot of work with that has made a science of redundant lists: Spec Page Count on the TOC Drawing List in DIV ONE a Spreadsheet that follows "Submittal Procedures" that lists every submittal included in all the individual Sections. The Above list also includes Project Record Documents, Maintenance Docs etc. The spreadsheet for a recent 40,000SF Medical Office Building ran to 70 tight Excel pages. The only saving grace - the county does their own DIV ONE, you just sit back and wonder. PS - You should see their DIV "ZERO", a 495 page PDF file guaranteed to freeze your laptop! Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 150 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 05:43 pm:    If there's one thing I can't stand, it's stuff that's redundant, superfluous and unnecessary... Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 264 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:24 pm:    I used to include number of pages and created the last TOC. With the power of generating Table of Contents with MasterWorks I stopped but I am being lazy. No other real good reason than I tired of recreating the TOC as the spec (as work on progress till the very last minute) developed. Before I started using the PDF format, I noticed that some printers drivers messed with my pagination and forced new pages, making my TOC uncoordinated. Currently, I manually check each section for weird page breaks, widows, orphans, and insert a blank page after each odd number page for duplex printing. Talk about busy work but a little tedium has saved me from embarassment and a redundant addendum. Number/name of drawings in table in spec is a moving target. Never do it. I do use MasterWorks to prepare reports for the usual suspects found in Division 01. No one knows how easy this is, and I look like a genius. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 216 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:27 pm:    There is always a reason for repetitive redundancy... The attorneys doing construction agreements seem to want to include a list of Drawings and a list of sections, sometimes with the number of pages in each section. It is beyond me why they can't simply say in the agreement that the list of drawings and specification sections can be found at ... However, they request, we are difficult and then comply. Of course there is always redundant repetition ... Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 435 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:38 pm:    page count: never because I too, think it is busy work and is constantly changing. its one more manual coordination thing that someone has to track. if there is a potential problem, its easy enough to change the footer to the "Page 1 of 6" variety and that provides enough check for a reader to figure out if the set is complete or not. I do use an "END OF SECTION" notation at the end of the section which I think provides enough of a marker for the reader. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 151 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:42 pm:    Earlier in this thread, David Axt wrote, "I also break with CSI PageFormat and put "Page 8 of 14" at the bottom of my pages." Nothing wrong with that, but there is a certain risk: Included in a Project Manual we recently issued were government-furnished documents having last pages identified as "Page 8 of 9", "Page 15 of 14", and "Page 109 of 101". (In two of the three cases, but not the last, the page included "End of Section".) David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 192 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 06:42 pm:    We do not include the page count in the TOC. Instead, we set up two columns on the right hand side of every TOC page. The first column is labeled "Original Issue" for the date of the spec section that is included in the Contract Documents. The second column is labeled "Latest Revision," for subsequent issues. It sort of serves a log, to keep track of spec sections that are revised or reissued during the course of Bidding and Construction. I have found this to be CONSIDERABLY more useful than a page count. I haven't used a page count in about 14 years and, quite frankly, I don't miss it one bit, and have never had a problem (from clients, lawyers, contractors, etc.) with it not being there. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 07:24 pm:    I like to put a page count on every section and on the Table of Contents for each section so that I can always know if a page is missing. Then, I like to put a paragraph count on every page of every section and on the Table of Contents for each section so that I can always know if a paragraph is missing. Then, I like to put a line count on every paragraph of every page of every section and on the Table of Contents for each section so that I can always know if a line is missing. Then, I like to put a word count on every line of every paragraph of every page of every section and on the Table of Contents for each section so that I can always know if a word is missing. Then, I like to put a letter count on every word of every line of every paragraph of every page of every section and on the Table of Contents for each section so that I can always know if a letter is missing. Then, I like to finish up by putting a very large overtime count on my time card - it help pay for the aspirin. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 08:23 pm:    Anon, Do you then list them like this? Letter Count: A: 45,996 B: 12,456 C: 2,093 ...... Z: Not Used Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 10:24 pm:    Page count: never. Page x of y: always. End of section: always. With all the technical shortfalls in design practices in this country, our time and attention is too valuable to engage in busywork out of habit. Specifiers need to stop acting like clerical help and hire some. Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 08:46 am:    We do not typically list the number of pages in the TOC with a few exceptions. For Geotech Reports and other special inserts or reference documents that may have multiple sections within a given document and/or non-consecutive page numbering, we include the number of pages as a means for the viewer to verify that they have the entire document. As stated by others, we do not see the need to list page counts for spec sections where the pages are numbered consequtively and "End of Section" appears at the end. The viewer should be able to plainly identify if they are missing a page. Would be time consuming on our part to coordinate this and a great chance of error if miscellaneous items are being added and coordinated in the "eleventh hour". Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 265 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:09 am:    David, I endorse your practice of issue dates. I have used a similar format for the drawing index. It is a good audit trail. Page numbers are omitted. Wayne Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:13 am:    Page Count: Never Page x of y: Never Page x: Always End of Section xx xx xx: Always Reason: I'm so compulsive that when I have an odd number of pages in a Section, I run a macro that adds a blank page, so there is always an even number of pages and the PM prints correctly. If I then run Masterworks or some other page number automation, it counts the blank page and provides incorrect information. And, no, I will not add "This page left blank intentionally" to the blank pages. Same reason for "Page x of y" The y is incorrect when I add the blank page. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 645 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 01:37 pm:    Don: Does the blank page have the header and footer on it? Is it dynamic, so that if the section is edited and becomes one page longer the blank page is deleted? Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 02:20 pm:    The macro creates a new section in the document, so there is no header and footer, but it is not dynamic. It needs to be removed. Leon Ruch, RA, CSI, CCS (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 02:15 pm:    Page count in Contents: Never Page x of y: Not for spec sections, but sometimes for documents that do not have an "end of" identifier Page x: In the footer, formatted zz zzzz-x End of Section zz zzzz: Never (since the section number is in the footer) End of Section: Always Not Used: Not used Drawing Index in Project Manual: Usually, due to the convenience of attaching the document to AIA A101. This document and the list on the drawing cover sheet can be linked to the same file so they remain in sync. Blank pages: Invest in a printer/copier with automatic duplexing. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 183 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 03:49 pm:    Ever done work for government agencies that require a page x of y in the header, starting with the first page of the table of contents and ending with the last page of the last section? While individual Word documents can be merged into a single consolidated file to accomplish this automatically, the x of y page numbering in the header interferes with the individual section page x numbering in the footer. Anonymous   Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 04:20 pm:    Dave, Have you tried MasterWorks macros for this? It comes with MasterSpec... You create what is called a Project Document - you may stipulate that the page numbering does not begin anew for each section... which I have only dealt with in the footer. I wonder if the macro would mess at all with page info in the header... You could try it. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 190 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 06:26 pm:    I haven't indicated number of pages per section in the Table of Contents since the mid 90's (when I started writing specs - so I never did in the first place). I count myself among those who think it is unecessary. The only time I ever did anything additional to the TOC was when we were doing some "fast-track" projects and were keeping track of multiple issues of sections by putting the issue date after the section. Steven T. Lawrey, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: lawrey Post Number: 63 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 01:33 pm:    I list the page numbers in the T of C as well as publish the drawing list. I've noticed that these documents often are copied and attached to the executed AIA A101. A101 provides columns for section, title and pages. Doug Frank FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 166 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 08:02 am:    I guess I’m among those guilty of “old school” thinking since I do include the number of pages for each section in the Table Of Contents. Ya’ll may be forcing me to rethink that practice. What I never do is include Dates! I have never been given the correct date for anything more than two days prior to issue (they’re always changing). The last thing I want to do when trying to finish up a project is go back and insert a bunch of dates. We have established a system where we include an abbeviation for the “Issue Identifier” (Bid; Bid Package#; Addendum #; whatever) at the left margin adjacent to each section that identifies the Current Issue of each section,, BP1 for example. That information doesn’t change and I can insert it well in advance of the scheduled issue without fear of last-minute change. The official date of each issue is established by the accompanying documentation. We also identify the Issue on each page of specs with the same identifier, placed in the bottom left corner of each page. I can insert the issue identifier into the footer of a section, even if I begin working on it two months prior to actual issue since I know that won’t change. Using this system it’s real easy to ensure that you’re looking at the most current edition of any document,, and I don’t have to worry about changing dates at the last minute. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:11 pm:    I often put a date in the footer on each section, but it is the date that the specific section was last modified - not the date the project manual is issued. It helps me keep track if I somehow discover I have two printed versions of the same section. Unfortunately, it confuses some people who assume I just forgot to correct the issue date on the sections. So, I'm considering abandoning the practice. I still put the issue date on the front cover. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 266 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:39 pm:    For those who use MasterWorks, creating Table of Contents at the 11th hour is quick and easy. The only thing that will make it difficult is if the files properties have been altered in some way or not updated. MasterWorks requires 3 lines in the Summary tab of the Properties dialogue box. They are Title:, Subject:, and Keywords: Title: Do not put spaces in the section number per MF04. Subject: Omit the word section and section nubmer. Keep section name from line 1. Keywords: If not alerady there, add BAS-12345-MS80 (BAS = BASIC, MS80 = MICROSOFT WORD 8.0) Have now idea what 12345 means. Open an AIA MasterSpec section and take a look. Creating headers and footers with date or no date is also quick and easy. In the past I did not put the moving target date in the header or footer and if I did it was monthn/year. The day was unpredictable. I relied in the project manual cover "Issued for Date" and a line in Division 01 Section "Summary". All of my current proejct are private. Dates in the header seems to work OK for these projects. If a section is modified by addendum, I add a second line in the footer (left justified) that reads: Revised by Addendum #X, dated mon/day/year. If a new section is added, the header reflects the new issued for date and I add a second line in the footer (left justified) that reads: Section added by Addendum #X, dated mon/day/year. I have grown lazy in my advancing years and have stopped putting page number in the TOC but with the power of MasterWorks, it is quick and easy. Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 68 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 02:04 pm:    Richard, I use a date code in the footer of all my specifications. When I print, I simply have to temporary change the date on my computer to whatever the issue date is. I use a date code on all computer generated correspondence as well. That way, I never have to type a date on anything. Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 116 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 02:04 pm:    It's possible to put a print/modified date in a text box located in the margin of the first page header of your section. it runs right along the edge of the paper and is usually hidden by the binding of the manual. It helps me keep straight which copy is the latest when faced with multiple copies, but isn't mistaken for an issue date. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 05:13 pm:    We do large projects exclusively. 10 years from SD to Grand Opening is common, with many anticipated revisions over the years. Another reason I do not provide page counts in the TOC is that I would need to issue a revised TOC each time we added or removed "Tile Type CT-49" or whatever, and gained or lost a page. DTR (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 10:41 pm:    Our firm uses a last printed date & filename on the binding edge of the page identifying when last printed, filename, firm author & copyright. Our table of contents list does not list all the section page counts. We do that with individual Division Sheet Indexes which list page counts for each section. The TOC list only fist page/section to the last page/section number in each division. Each spec section ends with "End of Section" desigination so you know if you have all the pages. More time, yes... But thats what sets us apart. Y. Lynn Jolley AIA CSI CCS CCCA Senior Member Username: lynn_jolley Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 05:15 pm:    DTR what are the benefits of doing what you do? Kim A. Bowman, CSI, AAIA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: archspecmaster Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 02:21 pm:    Page numbers are not used....they always change until the last minute. Just one more thing to coordinate. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 795 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 03:51 pm:    Didn't the CSI specifications competition require pages numbers for the Table of Contents for project manuals that were submitted?