Accepting gifts from vendors / produc...

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Author Message Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 06:29 pm:    Does your firm have a policy about accepting gifts from vendors? Personally I don't think it is a major issue if a vendor offers you a free lunch, pen, hat, coffee cup, etc. The dilemma comes in when the vendor offers you a free piece of equipment or material for your house. Where do you draw the line? Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 07:21 pm:    Most vendors offer architects, designers, specifiers etc. significant discounts on their materials (IE: Sherwin Williams is one that comes to mind). Sherwin Williams is in my spec, and always has been. I am a good friends w/ the Sherwin Williams rep. When I was painting my house, she offered me a few gallons of "demo" paint. The transaction wasn't an attempt to bribe me into spec'ing their product, so, I didn't have any problem with it. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 08:55 pm:    I have never asked for anything for myself. Perhaps I am waiting to build my dream house. I have joked to hard selling reps that their competitor gave me a Ferrari and they will need to top them if they want my business. On the other hand, my firm's interiors designers have been very pushy in getting things for little or nothing for office remodels. Our last 5000 SF build-out had more Bid Alternates than a 1,000,000 hospital! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 473 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 08:54 am:    If you're questioning a particular offer, most likely it's ethically wrong. I agree that lunches, pens, and mugs are no big deal and the same goes for discounts on products that you are personally using, mark-ups being what they are. Manufacturers who donate products to firms do so with the understanding that they can say "used at such and such" and you can find out first hand how the product performs. It's clever marketing. But the Ferrari or the Porsche are clearly over the line - unless the manufacturer is of Ferrari or Porsche and the item will be used in your next project! Part of it is value of the item, and part of it is the function of the offering. Is it to say thanks or is it a bribe? In Anonymous 2's case, it's clearly thanks (and maybe a little "try this"). In Steven's interior designer's case, it's marketing. Anonymous   Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 02:11 pm:    What about reps that fly you out to their factory and pay for your food, accommodations, entertainment and transportation? Is it unethical to accept their offer? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 245 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 02:34 pm:    It's only unethical if accepting the offer influences your professional judgment. It’s not the size of the gift; if a fifty cent pen or a two dollar coffee mug induces you to specify a product you wouldn’t normally specify, that is just as unethical as letting yourself become improperly influenced by the more expensive junket to the factory. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 476 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 02:36 pm:    If the purpose of the trip (as has been my experience) is a fairly intense day or two of education - touring the factory, learning how they manufacture their product, what makes them different from their competition - I wouldn't think that was unethical unless your response would be to remove every other manufacturer from your master specification and all future projects. Typically, this happens when the factory is too far away for day-tripping, they usually bring a group at a time and they have something to showcase. It's marketing for them, education for you. I'm not sure about the entertainment, though; that may raise another question. I've not been entertained, beyond the actual factory tour and food (and whatever's on the motel TV, which I don't classify as entertainment). I've toured the Marvin Window factory, and I know others who have toured Pella and VT Doors. And while it's not a factory tour per se, Firestone University is an exceptional opportunity for education; transportation is on your own, but everything else is covered. Harold S. Woolard Senior Member Username: harold_woolard Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 04:13 pm:    Such as "Anonymous" #2 stated, he is friends with the rep.and from a manufacture's point of view, giving a gallon of this a bag of that for their personal use is no big deal. It has worked for me some in the past,and I've also had some bad results with some give away or demo samples. Heck I've given away samples to receptionist's in an architects office. We also give these samples to our distributor's when we know it is for their personal use. As well as donating material for a civic project. Some architects like to believe they are talented around the house, where their wive's will tell you he can not even mow his grass in his yard straight. So far as visiting a manufacters plant, it is up to the architect to see what exactly goes on in manufacturing and lab RD department to make up his own mind to use a product. Now to box lunches, they should be educational first, then the vendor should get into his products if asked. Most lunches are intented for just one or two architects or spec writers, but we feed the ALL the other who later will remind you they remember seeing a similar presentation by you many years later, when they are in a decision making position. Russell W. Wood, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: woodr5678 Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 04:42 pm:    I do work for a large public/political agency...and as they say in politics "perception is reality." We had an offer from a vendor last year to go to Europe for something or other, and of course endless offers to go to carpet county in n.w. Georgia and visit carpet mills and re-cycle facilities. However, acceptance of such offers may give some the perception of cronyism or favoritism existing in this agency. So the prudent move is to safeguard against such a perception. So I'm generally pretty strict in graciously having to decline any offers. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 188 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 07:42 pm:    I tend to agree with Anonymous #1 - Lunch and the other little things like mugs, pens, etc. are generally okay. I've even had reps pickup my greens fees for CSI golf tournaments (I got my firm's okay first). However, the plane trips to factories, etc., are generally out. We had a couple of our Interiors people (gee, did I see something in this thread about interiors people?)accept such a "fly, wine, & dine" to Neocon a couple of years ago. My firm decided this was a no-no. I've had a couple of people question my going to lunch with some of my reps. I've explained to them that most of them are my friends, and CSI members, and that we usually go to lunch to discuss projects where I have already specified their product. Sometimes our conversations aren't even work related. Any rep who thinks buying me lunch (or anything else for that matter) is going to influence my decision is sadly mistaken. If I am considering a product for a project, I will bring the rep into the office outside of the lunch hour & it's strictly business. We had 3 of our reps, all members of our local CSI Chapter, invite some local spec writers to a holiday luncheon last month - it was their way of thanking us for specifying their products. While we are on the topic of ethics - what would your response be to the following scenario: An employee of a design firm (who may or may not be involved in the specifying of furniture) is dating a vendor from whom the firm specifies/purchases furniture systems? Would this be considered a conflict of interest? Anonymous   Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 02:17 pm:    I've worked for a large entertainment corporation that had a written policy about not accepting ANYTHING with a dollar value in excess of $75/yr. from a single entity/source. Also part of the written policy was that any "appearance" of impropriety was also forbidden...with that added language that said in essence, "if you have to ask, then it's probably not permitted". Another large A/E company just had the dollar value limitation as written policy...coincidently if I recall also $75. Although, in either case, I'd never heard of anyone's termination for violating such, it is does provide strict grounds for justifiable firing. In this situation, how much does one value continued employment? Prudent judgment should be exercised where there is no written policy. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 777 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 01:33 pm:    Richard, I can do you one better. An architect where I used to work ended up marrying the product rep that we did business with all the time. She would always make a big joke of it and say to him, in public, "Honey, do I still have to specify your products?" Let's put the shoe on the other foot. If we can't accept gifts, then can we give gifts? Does this mean that we can not take out clients out to a baseball game for beer and hotdogs? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 477 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 02:28 pm:    I know an Interior Designer married to a Supplier of interior materials and an Architect married to a CM. These things happen...one can only hope that the parties maintain their integrity and ethics. As to gifting others, perception is everything. How will others view the gift - and the intent? Anonymous   Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 03:02 pm:    Pardon the anonimity, but we just got past a big governmental investigation in my area regarding this issue and I don't want to stir up the waters. I want to know who the vendors are that are offering Porches and Ferraris? Apparently, I have the good(?) fortune to live in an area where the market is small enough that no one bothers to suck up to the specifiers. Legally speaking, as far as I know, the accepting of gifts only becomes a legal issue when the project is publicly funded. A vendor potentially could sue if they discovered that we were specifying competitors because they gave us gifts. This however, would be extremely unlikely to occur. Vendors do not make sales by suing specifiers. Also, the entities that employ architects and specifiers are really the ones responsible for ensuring that public money is spent competitively. Our obligation is to just comply with the Owner’s standards for publicly funded projects (and, as always, to use good sound judgment.) If the owner tells us not to accept gifts from specified vendors, then we are obligated to comply. Ethically speaking, I believe that receiving gifts would be wrong only if the gifts were so large that a specifier might feel obligated to specify the gift-giver’s products or if the promised gift is so desirable that the specifier is encouraged to specify a manufacturer in hopes of subsequently obtaining a promised gift. In both cases, the gift would have to be substantial. But even then, this really comes down to the character of the specifier. Personally, I presume that I wouldn’t let any gift affect my decisions – but, then again, I don’t have vendors offering me cars or vacations. It really comes down to standard practices in the industry. When all the manufacturers of a particular type of product are offering the same types of gift-giving marketing strategies and it isn’t so extravagant that smaller manufacturers can’t afford to do it – then we probably shouldn’t worry about it. Realistically speaking, vendors who know how to market their goods to specifiers will get specified more often. Gifts are one method of advertising and marketing; but personally, the affect their gifts have on me are far less than the obligation of loyalty I feel towards vendors with whom I have struck up friendships. If my office was to forbid all gifts on the grounds that they could influence my specs, then they would also have to forbid all my associations with vendors in any way – including visits with them at CSI meetings, lunch-n-learns, or office visits, or even e-mails and mailings. Every marketing activity could affect my desire to specify them. My point here is that such a policy towards gifts makes little sense and (if perception really is reality) is more motivated by jealousy than ethics. The perception to me is that the office Principals just don’t want their lowly specifiers getting any privileges that they don’t get. The notion of “perception is reality” isn’t really applicable in my case, and I suspect it isn’t applicable in most specifier’s cases. No one seems to perceive anything that I do – let alone perceive what gifts I get. No one knows what is given to me or from whom I received it. The odds that some competing vendor or Owner will find out that I received a gift are next to nothing. So, it is squinting at gnats to even call it a problem. I believe the best policy is simply one of moderation. If a vendor is offering you something that far exceeds what competitors are offering or that exceeds what smaller manufacturers would be able to offer, it might be wise to reconsider accepting it. But if we go to extremes and reject all gifts or assign arbitrary monetary limits, we are merely resisting accepted marketing strategies, thus forcing vendors to find less desirable ways to get out attention. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 639 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 05:32 pm:    Pretty much the biggest gifts I generally have received for the past number of years is a drink at the CSI meeting. And it usually only happens if I walk up to the bar at the same time as a product rep happens to be pulling out her wallet to pay for her own drink. At the convention, I may end up with a dinner or two. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 778 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 05:57 pm:    John, You poor guy. Half my wardrobe is gifts from reps! Actually that reminds me. I collect stuff and squirrel it away in a drawer. I need to do some spring cleaning and give the stuff to the interns. There is only so many scales, coffee mugs, pens, bags, hats, t-shirts, drink cozies, etc. that one specifier can have! Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 07:51 pm:    The best "gifts" I have received are not from product reps or suppliers, but my own design consultants. Engineers come up with the neatest metal scales, calculators, even one time a personal FM radio at the Pacific Design Conference at Asolimar. I guess we should re-visit their fees if they can afford to give these things away. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 640 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 08:24 am:    A trip to Pacific Grove is reward enough. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 189 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:54 am:    My gift to my reps is that my office is located on the water in Newport Beach, CA. I never seem to have trouble getting them to come see me, especialy in the summer! If they take me to lunch, they get the benefit of a water view. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 214 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 04:35 pm:    When I was president of the Honolulu Chapter, I wrote a President's Column on this subject. I got more comments than any other column I wrote (including the one on using a personal computer that was reprinted in the CSI NewsDigest--or whatever it was called back then). It all varies depending on the market segment, your employer, your client, and your geography, but it is important to understand that others may not understand the relationship you have with a rep who has provided outstanding service and support both for his products and for your efforts over the years. The really nice lunch you got treated to last week may look really fishy to the Federal auditor who will be visiting your firm next week. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 785 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 02:31 pm:    I notice that Industry Members are conspicuously absent in this conversation. I would like to hear their opinion on this subject. I imagine that this topic is a double-edged sword for them. On one hand they like wining and dining the design professionals. On the other hand, they are probably upset if their competitor is constantly wining and dining their favorite specifiers. Harold S. Woolard Senior Member Username: harold_woolard Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 03:18 pm:    As a Industry member I have already replied to this earlier, but I would like to tell a story since it was brought up that the best gift that a person received was from a design consultant. There is another organization called CEPFI, that I had the honor being at one of there awards banquet where they sent a piece of paper around for bids on a 40 year bottle of wine to be drank by the winning bid table. The paper started to my left and after all 9 others sitting at the table had put down their bids I got to look at the sheet, I was shocked with such figures, which went to a scholarship fund. It had totaled $8,000.00 when I got it paper. There where about 300 persons in the room. There was several CEO of Architectural Firms sitting at the table along with a couple of Contractor's one being Henry C. Beck. Anyway, our table's bid was 10th out of the 30 tables with $8,020.00. What is the difference in firms giving this kind of money out even though it was for scholarships? You had to pay your bid even if you lost. I remember they raised $96,000.00 that night with the lowest bid being $500.00 a table. To me there is no difference in budgeting for expense gift's to architects, engineers, consultant groups, contractors, chairity organizations, and scholarship money by firms. It is just the manufacturing people usually do it to their friends to show off there products. I'm sure the demo paint looked good on the spec writer's house and he or she is still specifing his or her product. But if it only lasted 6 months, do you think the paint is still in his or her specs? Products have to preform, and pins, pencils, notebooks, calendars, tote bags,and other "give-a-ways" are just part of doing business. As I found out giving money for scholarship funds. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 72 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 03:40 pm:    There are few industry members that participate in this forum. A few have, in my opinion, spammed their products and I am not permitting more industry members - unless I know them and have their clear understanding on posting requirements. They can post subject to moderation approval and so perhaps you should ask a few to respond. Joanne Rodriguez, CSI, CDT, LEED AP Senior Member Username: joanne Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 08:54 pm:    As an employee of a roofing manufacturer, and as a past employee of manufacturers of waterproofing and all building envelope related products I laugh at the notion that Architects and Specifiers can be bought. The fact that I am married to a forensic architect who specializes in exterior building repair must make me wonder--"am I a bad cook or what?" since I have yet to curry favor within their firm. It has been my experience that there are some product reps who cross the line--offering vacations and hunting trips to their biggest specifiers and architects in lieu of "consideration" on projects. But equally, those specifiers and architects actively engage in back scratching activity and seem to not care what industry peers think of them. The vast majority of my experience has been dotted with great relationships with both product reps and architects who exist in harmony. The gift giving resembles free lunches (which all firms mug us for), cocktails at meetings (which I happily accept), golf outings and educational trips like what Lynn referenced. We offer the opportunity to come into our plants and see product manufactured, tested, and classroom learning in lieu of some entertainment (Indians, Browns or Rock and Roll Hall of Fame) but the rest is on your dime. Additionally, the session is AIA approved for 18 hs&w units so it is not "blanket" marketing on our part. Bottom line--if it doesn't feel comfortable then don't do it. But the minute that product reps and manufacturers cease to engage in "passive marketing" and friendship building, the end of open communication and trust is near. Because I have found it is often not the product but the rep that is selected in the specification process because they are honest, trusting and forthright about their industry. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 167 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 05:41 pm:    <<if it doesn't feel comfortable then don't do it>> I agree with this statement. BUT, what if it really feels good? This thread has me thinking back to the early 1970's when I attended the old JM’s BURSI, Built-Up Roofing Systems Institute. IIRC, the program was taken over by NRCA and then spun-off into its’ own educational non-profit status. But at the time I went, and probably still is, the best educational program a new specifier can participate in. It was free by invitation by JM. You provided your own transportation but everything was covered including side attractions like golf, and I even heard that some received tickets to the Bronco’s football game. Darn, I missed that one. That was one event I really enjoyed and learned a tremendous amount about roofs. Of course, there were a lot fewer roofing systems to learn about; I was still occasionally specifying coal-tar systems back then. JM presented in such a low key, one almost forgot who the sponsor was. You just didn’t even hear the name JM promoted. They were very diligent about presenting all the known pro’s and con’s of built-up roofing systems and their related materials. Warts and all. One came away from those 4-days [5-days?] of sessions feeling that you just earned another degree. I never once thought of it as a gift or promotion up until now, but obviously is was looking back on it. Boy, it sure was a good time. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 437 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 06:44 pm:    I went to BURSI at JM in Colorado about 3 years ago. its about 2 days now, and there wasn't any golf, and you had to fly out on Sunday on your own time. However, in terms of the technical education, it still is pretty good and better than most of the things out there. I don't see this as a conflict. I can certainly specify someone's products but I can't ensure that they get on the project -- that's up to the contractor on the job. A lot of manufacturers recognize that fact, and many of them don't even bother with architectural reps anymore because we simply don't have the authority of the spreadsheet in front of us. a good specifier isn't going to specify a product that doesn't work properly just because someone took him or her to dinner; or even took him fishing. at this stage in my career, I've specified billions of dollars worth of products and if I get a payback of $1000 a year in free meals and trips, I would be suprised. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 787 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 07:00 pm:    Anne, I know that promotional stuff does little to influence my decision on what products to specify. You know that. The problem is that the Owner does not know that. There is a concern in my office that the Owner will perceive that product reps are bribing their way into our jobs. And you know that perception is reality (in their minds). Joanne Rodriguez, CSI, CDT, LEED AP Senior Member Username: joanne Post Number: 44 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 09:52 pm:    David, Is the perception more within the minds of your offices or do you actually have Owners aware of product rep business practices? If it is the office taking a "proactive" approach to a situation my guess is that there has been some suspicious activity that they are trying to curtail. There have also been instances in firms where personalities conflict (I know this is a shock) and where one rep faces "Most Favorite Nation Status" with one contact they are persona non grata to the others. However, if it is an Owner I think that inviting them to in-house lunch seminars or even to BURSI type academies so that they can see the extent of knowledge that is shared might be of help. We welcome architects, owners, facility managers, contractors and the like because in our industry clear communication of good roofing practice is not an option. I have also been in firms where the Owners were actively engaged in selection process by attending seminars and meetings, but this is extremely rare. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 438 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:26 pm:    the only clout I know that an architect actually has that I'm aware of is their refusal to approve a substitution request, and even that can be over-ridden by an Owner. if you're specifying multiple manufacturers I simply don't see how the Owner can think that product reps are buying their way into the specs. and if the concern is coming more from your office, then they need more work to do...