Fire Rated Doors

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Author Message (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 04:07 pm:    Does anyone know of a 4-hour rated metal door manufacturer? Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 360 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 04:22 pm:    Why would you need a 4-hour rated door? The highest rating required by the building codes is only 3 hours. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 07:29 pm:    Ron, You are partially correct - The highest rated door manufactured is 3-hour. However, there are areas, such as below grade parking areas, where a 4-hour rated separation may be required. In this instance, I have had to specify 2 doors to equal or exceed the wall rating when required by the AHJ. Our "unregistered guest" also needs to provide additional info regarding as to why the 4 hour rating. This would help in obtaining a more reasonable answer to their question. Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 361 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 02:28 pm:    Rich: According the the IBC and UBC, 4-hour-rated assemblies need only have 3-hour-rated openings. I can't recall any case where a 4-hour-rated opening would be required, unless the AHJ has required it through some amendment to either of these codes. But then that begs the question: why require something that isn't readily available on the market? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 181 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 03:33 pm:    Ron, That may be true, but local AHJ can make their own rules, including things that may not be readily available - they usually don't care. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 494 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 06:59 am:    If the AHJ wants to make unusual rules, I think they then have a responsibility to assist in meeting the requirements. I am not saying they should offer design services, but if they require a 4-hour door, either this is the first time [?????],OR if they have done it before, they should be able and should provide outlets where such doors can be obtained. You also have the right of appeal, I assume-- unless they have seen fit to eliminate that too! Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 176 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:34 am:    Wait, I missed something here. Appeal to whom? The state conference of building officials I assume. In practice I have found no appellate process what-so-ever. The SOB's do what they want. They are only surpassed by fire marshals who see no authority structure in-between themselves and God. How do you appeal things where you're at? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 232 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:37 am:    Fire vault doors can be obtained with higher ratings (4-hr, 6-hr, etc.) It always seems odd that papers and cash rate a higher level of protection than people. Schwab Corp is a company that makes fire vault doors. If you need to couple a higher fire rating with egress requirements, try one of the specialty door companies like Overly or Kreiger. They'll custom make almost anything your pocketbook can afford. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 495 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:59 am:    Marc, as a former SOB may I advise that in Ohio, the State Board of Building Standards that oversees the state code, and state code administration agencies, also oversees local boards of appeals. These, by law, must be constituuted of an architect, an attorney, a structural engineer, a mechanical [HVAC] engineer and a member of organzied labor. Any decision of a local code official can be appealed to such board, and in general these boards are very good and very fair in understanding situations and making reasonable decisions. They do take away unilateral, unauthorized, and "over-stepping decisions" and demands of local officials. The state fire code comes out of the state Fire Marsall's office. Appeals of fire code issues are permitted but to boards of fire officials. Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 362 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:14 am:    To tag onto Ralph's comment, refer to 2003 or 2006 IBC Section 112, which covers the creation of a Board of Appeals (Section 105 in the 1997 UBC/2001 CBC) to hear matters regarding the application of the code. The Board, however, is not permitted to waive any requirement of the code; so don't expect the appeal process to overrule the building official on issues requesting that certain code requirements be considered not applicable. Kenneth C. Crocco Senior Member Username: kcrocco Post Number: 60 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:45 am:    The Chicago Building Code contains a requirement for Fire Walls; which, with some exceptions are 4 hour rated walls. The openings in these walls are to be protected on both sides with a Class A fire door. This is sometimes given the mosnomer of 4 hour rated door. It is a 3 hour door on both sides of the opening. See Chicago Building Code 7(15-8-010) Some of you not familiar with Chicaog Building Codes will be a little surprised with the numbering system. (BTW: No, Chicago is not recommending yet another method of dividing section numbers for MF04) Anonymous   Posted on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:52 pm:    In response to George's comment about paper and cash rating a higher level of protection than people, paper and cash are not ambulatory. These things must sit the fire out - buildings are designed per code to provide adequate means and enough time to get people out... Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 04:57 pm:    Thank you all for your interest in this subject. Yes, under the CBC (appplicable code in this case) the door only needs to be 3 hours when the walls are 4 hours. However the code does not address our particular issue; we're not protecting people but microfilms for the County of L.A.courts in this case. I find it strange that the weak link in the chain - in this case the door - needs to be only 3 hours. We will follow George Everding's advice and specify a 4-hour rated vault door in this case. Tobin Oruch, CDT Senior Member Username: oruch Post Number: 36 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 03:44 pm:    Gerald, if you want to go the extra mile and help confirm both the client's requirements and your design, I suggest looking at the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration website requirements for Federal record storage facilities, i.e., http://www.archives.gov/about/regulations/part-1228/k.html.