Use of the word "all"

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Author Message Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 202 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 07:14 pm:    This may be a fundamental question, but my new office does not have the new CSI project manual resourse nor the previous MOP. What is the rule for using or not using the word "all". I currently avoid using "all" but cannot remember why I do. It just seems redundant. Thanks, Wayne Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 350 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 07:32 pm:    In PRM-MOP Section 5.8.10.3, it lists "any," "all," and "such" as articles to avoid. The reason to avoid using "all," as you said, is redundant. For example, let's assume a specification provision states, "Secure gypsum board to metal framing with screws." It could have been written to read, "Secure all gypsum board to metal framing with screws." How is that different? It isn't. The first sentence obviously applies to gypsum board; it doesn't say "some" gypsum board, or "Type X" gypsum board, but just gypsum board. So, if it's gypsum board, screw it. If it's not gypsum board, look for applicable requirements somewhere else in the project manual. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 173 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 08:34 pm:    Another reason for not using "all" is that if "all" is used as a modifier for some items but not others, that implies that "all" does not apply where it is not used. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 442 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:32 am:    Let me first write that I agree and gleefully remove the "all"s that exist in sections. However, what about something like "All utilities may not be shown"? To remove "all" changes the meaning. What's the cleanest, clearest, most concise way to express a thought like this? scott keener Intermediate Member Username: keener Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:45 am:    "Some utilities may not be shown"? "Not all utilities may be shown?"? something like that? Not only must i strip out the "all"s, but i must strip out the "any and"s that were added in front of them. sheesh. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:54 am:    Toilet Accessories have all-welded construction Gypsum Board has all-purpose joint compound Ceramic tile has additives that replace part or all of gaging water. You can't get rid of it all. (Intended) But you can certainly remove "all" when it attempts to quantify something. To answer the question with another question...Would "Some utilities may not be shown" state the intended message? David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:17 am:    We have to exercise common sense. Editorial and grammatical rules are intended to put people in the proper frame of mind, and the rules apply most of the time. But they should not replace thinking. I battle constantly with junior editors who believe the word "that" has no place in formal writing. They delete such words in every instance without reading the context in which they are placed. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 139 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:25 am:    The general principle is, you should never use sweeping general terms like the word "all" (or the word never, for that matter...). Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 174 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:48 am:    "All generalities are false, including this one". G.K. Chesterton Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 203 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:49 pm:    To all who replied. Thanks. Wayne John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 252 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 07:15 pm:    I'm going to be doing a project in Mississippi. Do I need to change the "all" to "y'all" and when is it proper to use "all y'all?" Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 444 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:31 am:    y'all can be singular; all y'all is definitely plural - or at least that's what I've been told. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 141 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:35 am:    In the southern U. S., "y'all" is second person plural, period. To say that it can be singular is simply incorrect. Other regional dialects of American English make no such distinction between second person singular and plural (except perhaps for "you'uns" or "youse", which appear to be fading from use, or are actively being suppressed, and where their apparent origin as plural forms may have been forgotten -- which misunderstanding is extended, in ignorance, to "y'all"). The impression that "y'all" can ever have a singular meaning may come from misunderstanding the common hospitable southern expression, "Y'all come back, y'hear?" because it can indeed sometimes be spoken to only one person. However, the implication is always that both the addressee AND his or her family, friend etc. who are with him or her are meant (though the others may already be out in the car, waiting to go...). All of those who are (or were) with the person addressed are included, whether they are still within earshot or not. There are no doubt other instances in which one person is addressed with "y'all" -- but the reference is always to more than one ("Why don't y'all come over this weekend?" means "Why don't you and your husband, wife, etc. come over...?" even though the person addressed may be alone (except for the speaker) at the time. So, "y'all" is always plural. The only correct usage of the expression "all y'all" I can imagine would be for clarification, confirmation or emphasis (e.g., "your whole family -- that's right, I mean all 12 of you"). Otherwise, it is simply evidence of misunderstanding. "Ya'all" may be an acceptable alternate spelling, and "you all" (of which "y'all" is a contraction) is sometimes still heard in parts of the South as well, though not much around here (Houston). Same meaning -- plural. The plural possessive ("y'all's) is also used -- not as much -- and may not be regarded by some as equally acceptable to "y'all itself. (This is from someone not born in the South -- who was in fact stigmatized in the fourth grade (in Tennessee) by his midwestern accent and speech mannerisms, and learned southern as a second language, but now speaks it with reasonable fluency, and by choice...) So, remember, y'all -- "y'all" is ALWAYS plural... Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 206 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:53 am:    Robert, I hope "youse" wrote this thesis off hours. Back to "all." AIA A201, Clause 1.4.1: "In the interest of brevity the Contract Documents frequently omit modifying words such as “all” and “any” and articles such as “the” and “an,” but the fact that a modifier or an article is absent from one statement and appears in another is not intended to affect the interpretation of either statement.” Thanks Wayne David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 03:32 pm:    This Woodburn - there's something to him! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 445 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 03:38 pm:    Yup, he's "all that" Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 351 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 03:40 pm:    With the thread topic in mind, is he "that"? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 230 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:02 pm:    Are you suggesting we need to modify the "all the King's horses and all the King's men" language in the "Large Egg Fall Protection" section? Or is that just too silly? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 446 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:05 pm:    It's Friday afternoon - NOTHING is too silly! "..pretty maids all in a row..." Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 352 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:13 pm:    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln (or so I'm told) Thank goodness Abe didn't speak like a specifier would write. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 447 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:24 pm:    I thought it was P.T. Barnum... Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 353 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:26 pm:    I believe his famous quote is, "There's a sucker born every minute." Anonymous   Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 08:48 am:    I thought "all" is what they put in cars. Anonymous   Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:06 pm:    No. They put "erl" in cars. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 451 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 03:20 pm:    When speaking to a group, y'all is general (I know y'all)—as in that group of people is familiar to you and you know them as a whole, whereas all y'all is much more specific and means you know each and every person in that group, not as a whole, but individually ("I know all y'all.") Y'all can also be used with the standard "'s" possessive. Y'all is distinctly separate from the singular 'you'. The statement, "I gave y'all my payment last week," is more precise than "I gave 'you' my payment last week." 'You' (if interpreted as singular) could imply the payment was given directly to the person being spoken to — when that may not be the case. The Chattanoogan.com; Patricia's Porch Talk: In Plain, Southern English by Patricia Paris (an exerpt) posted October 2, 2006 Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 144 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 04:18 pm:    Lynn, thanks for an "institutional" confirmation of the understanding I related above. What this adds that I didn't mention is that "y'all" can refer to an "impersonal" entity including more than one person (such as a company, in this example). Though company is singular, it includes more than one person--an implied plural, like a collective noun. The second citation is a good example that "all y'all" is used for emphasis ("each and every person in that group...individually"). scott keener Advanced Member Username: keener Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 04:21 pm:    i dunno what all'a yinz're all talkin about. an'nat.