| Author |
Message |
John Hunter
Advanced Member
Username: johnhunter
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |    |
Has anyone had any exeperience using a Schedule for Finishes in their project manuals? The VA had a section 09050 and MS 04 has 09 06 00 for this kind of information, and there is an intuitiveness to having all color/ finish information in a single Section, if only to alert the design team to the logic that perhaps the metal finish on the handrail, wall sconce, display case and door pull might want to have some relationship to one another, not to mention the practical advantage of not having to revise multiple Sections when finsh decisions, as they always are, are changed at the 11th hour.
I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who has tried this approach.
Thanks. |
Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI
Senior Member
Username: rbaxter
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 01:44 pm: | |
We have had a finish schedule in our specs a few times. We inserted it as a section added at the end of Division 09. I let the interior designers create it and I just inserted it. I prefer that it remain in Drawings however, because the schedule includes items specified in at least Divisions 05, 06, 08, and 09. The Contractor might not intuitively think to look at the end of Division 09 to find the door and millwork finishes. Finish Drawings are usually necessary as a way to indicate where each finish product applies. It makes sense to have the schedule there. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 617
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:00 pm: | |
Since 1983, all or our project manuals have contained a division 1 section where we list all the finishes for all materials, interior, exterior, concrete to landscaping (the appropriate 'front to back' reference given landscaping is at the end now -grin!)
Each finish is given a designation, such as MAS for Masonry, so we have...
MAS-01: and the finish selection for that masonry unit.
In the internal spec sections, there are is no finish information provided, there is a reference to come to this division 1 section for the finish.
On the drawings, there are no product names, there is only a designation for the finish (e.g. MAS-01)
That way, the entire pallet of colors can change and never have to change anything but this one section. We have had some projects where the owner wanted a very complex patter of colors and stones on a lobby floor, but could not afford it. But they kept the pattern, just simplified the number of stone types.
Nothing even changed on any of the drawings, just that some stone designations changed in this division 1 section so that perhaps stone 1, 2, 3 and 4 were all identical.
Very handy.
William |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 386
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:06 pm: | |
we typically use a Division 1 section or perhaps a section at the beginning of Division 9, but we're finding that for very large projects ($250 million and up) this simply doesn't work anymore. An 80 page (or 150 page) schedule of materials isn't useful for anyone because its too cumbersome and impossible to reference. we're currently working with our various offices to see if we can find a way to make this information both easy to reference and also to verify, and it may be that we go back to schedules at the end of each section with a master list only in Division 1. |
Julie Root
Senior Member
Username: julie_root
Post Number: 64
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:11 pm: | |
How are others seeing this work in BIM technology? Preliminarily I see it being easier to do as Anne notes with schedules at the end of each section and a master list for reference only. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 618
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:18 pm: | |
One might consider how the list is presented.
You can 'tour the building' covering exterior finishes and then room or area by area interiors.
We used to do that, but only for projects where we were dealing with exterior finishes and major public interior spaces.
We have recently switched over to using the division 1 section only to list the materials and their finishes. The drawing schedule and the drawings themselves where patterns on a single surface are complex cover where each finish is located.
Have not had trouble with this on projects of any size or complexity including some high end condomininum units where we are doing the interiors work as well as architectural and all finishes for the complete project are covered including a number of unit interiors where there are 4 or 5 optional selections for end user selection.
A typical Architectural only project is now 3 pages, maybe 4 at the most. The full interiors type with lots of options is turning out to be about 10 pages for the low end, 20 for a high end number.
William |
Doug Frank FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: doug_frank_ccs
Post Number: 159
Registered: 06-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:25 pm: | |
We’ve been including a “Finish Schedule” and a separate document “Code To Finishes” in the Project Manual at the end of Division 9 for several years as well. We use 09060x section numbers now with MF04. We’re lucky that most of our work is for private owners and we have an in-house interior design group. Consequently we can list specific manufacturer / color / pattern / etc for each desired finish material desired, and coordination between architecture and interiors is simplified. I’m not too concerned with scheduling work of other divisions in Division 09. The Schedules and Codes are clearly identified in the Project Manual Table OF Contents and we use some General Notes on the Drawings to direct readers to the PM where we think necessary.
Yes the schedules and related documents can get real big for several hundred million dollar projects but the benefits outweigh the negatives. We’ve had good response from contractors and our in-house CA folks, who like being able to view the Schedules at the same time as the Drawings instead of flipping back and forth between 30x42 sheets. We do the same thing with Door/Opening schedules as well.
Another huge benefit to this is the ease with which revisions can be handled for addenda and later PRs and such. It’s real easy to revise and reissue a few 8-1/2 x 11 pages rather than revising and reissuing schedule info on 30x42 Drawings. |
Ruppert Rangel, AIA CCS
Advanced Member
Username: rangel
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 02:35 pm: | |
On our government work (typically Corp. of Engineers, Air Force) we include a similar section. The COE section is comprehensive, so you have to do a lot of editing. But it isn't a bad "check list" to have.It compliments our normal room to room finish schedule. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wyancey
Post Number: 174
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 04:25 pm: | |
Orignially schedules were on drawings, then in the specs with the advent of spreadsheets such as Lotus 123 and Excel, and finaly back on the drawings with CAD programs either in native CAD format or insertion of a speradsheet in a CAD file.
I have used schedules in the spec and schedules on drawings.
For specs I use an Excel spreadsheet. In drawings I used a AutoCAD spreadsheet. It is easier to navigate an Excel spreadsheet than an AutoCAD spreadsheet. I tended to loose my place in the CAD version and ended up performing a lot of panning and zooming.
I have used a dedicated sections for all material finish colors for same reasons as noted by some of the above postings.
CAD programs make it simplier to include room finish and color schedules in drawings.
My experience is in most cases specs get misplaced or lost but drawings do not.
When I used a MAC, the spreadsheet was a database application that had the look and feel of spreadsheet. The database approach made it very easy to perform query/extracts for additions, changes, deletions, and sorts. This is more difficult in Excel with the column names occupy more than one cell, but I am not an Excel power user.
I favor the use of material color schedule in a section in either Div 01 or 09.
Doug makes a good case for using 8-1/2 x 11 pages over drawings. |
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza
Post Number: 205
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 05:20 pm: | |
For moderately complex projects and up, getting finish schedule information off the drawings and into the project manual is very efficient. Finish schedule information is very volatile - many changes throughout bidding and construction. Excel seems to be much more efficient as a schedule editor than word processing or CAD software. Finish material specification sections can largely be left alone as colors and patterns change - they refer to the finish material schedules/legends for actual manufacturer/product/pattern/color listings, which are maintained by the interior designers.
For very large projects, the schedules can be a standalone volume of the project manual. For projects such as health care campuses, interior designers can develop intermediate color groups for the array of materials in each common room type. This allows individual produce and color changes without having to change a multitude of schedule or room notations. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 722
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 06:44 pm: | |
John,
I think that some of us here are talking apples and oranges.
Are you referring to the Room Finish Schedule that is normally put in the Drawings? Or are you referring to pulling all of the color/pattern finish information out of the individual specs and compiling them into a separate section? |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 619
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 11:47 pm: | |
Some are talking about both.
I pull out all the color, pattern, finish information from the spec sections and put it in division 1. On the room finish schedule, we then use the designators there, and where it is complex (needing elevations or plans for specific elements, features, etc., the schedule referes to those elevations/plans. Some then put those schedules in the PM. I do not. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 723
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 12:44 pm: | |
I tried pulling out all the finish information but ran into problems. It is easy to separate paint color information from the paint material spec. It is a little more complicated with ceramic tile (color and size), finish carpentry (species and cut), acoustical ceiling tile (color, size, pattern, performance characteristics).
At least by leaving all this information in the specs I stand the chance of someone actually reading the specs. |
John Carter (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:22 am: | |
Most of our large architectural clients use an 09000 document for finish schedules in the project manual. Works ok for us. |
M. Purdue
Advanced Member
Username: super_slo
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 01:05 am: | |
Finish Specs?!?! I thought if they wanted 'antique white', we were to take the leftover paint from the last job, and add 30 gallons of white........
signed,
John Doe Contractor |
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