Signage questions

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Author Message David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 687 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:49 pm:    What is the Code (IBC) required signage? What is the ADA required signage? We have had a lot of discussion in the office in regards to what signage is require by what code. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 200 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:59 pm:    I wonder if this question springs from the following scenario: The owner is planning on having a comprehensive signage program for the new building, but of course that isn't in place when the doc's go out to bid. So the architect needs to define "code required signage" because the AHJ won't give a permit or a cerificate of occupancy until you address signage. That's what we face frequently. Your problem too, David? Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 302 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:20 pm:    First, ADA is not a code; it is a law in which guidelines have been developed in order to comply with the law. Required signage per the ADAAG is based only on accessibility; whereas, signage required by the building code goes beyond accessibilty. Signage under the ADAAG is specified in 4.30, but there're other requirements embedded throughout the document. The best way to search for requirements is to use the search feature on an electronic document. The ADAAG can be downloaded in HTML and PDF formats from http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm. The building official does't review plans according to ADAAG, but only the building code. In which case, the IBC has Chapter 11 on accessibility, that, in turn, adopts ICC/ANSI A117.1-1998. Again, getting these in electronic format makes it easier to do a search. Some of the building code requirements include exit signs, signage in hazardous locations, fire alarm signage, stairway identification signage, floor load signage, restroom signage, elevator signage, and automatic door signage; all in addition to the accessibility signage. The owner will have to comply with the ADA, so he'll expect the architect to know the requirements in the ADAAG, as well as the requirements of the building code. As an architect, you'll probably have to do a side-by-side comparison of both to make sure all requirements are covered. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 444 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:29 pm:    An excellent and highly informed source in regard to the codes, ADA and bi-lingual signage is; Sharon Toji at; http://www.accesscommunications.bigstep.com/ Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 250 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:36 pm:    We frequently include a spec section for Code Required Signage and define it as the signage required by the Building department to receive CO, the problem we have is that the Interior Designer or Graphic Consultant's Signage Package may not be documented until after the General Construction Contract has been signed and there is always added charges by the GC to upgrade the code required signage to the same quality as the Building Standard. On our last project, the architect asked us to remove our section, and leave it up to the Owner to decide on a Signage Package. We too would like to know how our peers handle this, for us it is once again privately funded projects, condos, offices, hotels, commercial, etc., and not the public agency work. Tobin Oruch, CDT Senior Member Username: oruch Post Number: 30 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 02:34 pm:    As far as a side-by-side comparison of ADA and IBC (2003 and 2006), here's info from the ICC: The 2006 IBC/ADAAG Comparison http://www.iccsafe.org/safety/accessibility/2006IBC_ADAAG_Comparison.pdf This matrix serves to facilitate comparisons of the new Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) - Architectural Barriers Act (ABA) Guidelines for Buildings and Facilities, published in the Federal Register on July 23, 2004 and amended August 5, 2005, with the Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG), signed into law in 1990, and the 2006 International Building Code, which references the standard ICC/ANSI A117.1 Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities-2003. BDBlack Codes, Inc. developed a similar matrix under contract with the U.S. Access Board. Brian Black based the initial project on the 2003 International Building Code with 2004 Amendments and the ICC/ANSI A117.1-2003. This new matrix, updated to the 2006 International Building Code, will serve a wider audience, as more jurisdictions move to adopt the 2006 International Codes and federal agencies implement the new ADA-ABA Guidelines. For more information on the IBC and the ICC/ANSI A117.1 standard, click here. To view the Access Board's 2003 IBC comparison, visit www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/comparison/index.htm. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 126 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:16 pm:    Ralph, thanks for the tip. I went to Sharon Toji's website. What struck me most was the link "Blind and vision impaired users, click here." So I did. Turned up the speakers, but didn't hear anything. Felt the screen; it was as smooth as ever, no little bumps. Closed my eyes and tried again, but nothing changed. Since we don't have a Braille printer, I couldn't try that. Reminds me of the famous billboard saying, "Illiterate? Call 1-800-get-help" (or words to that effect). Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 447 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:24 pm:    Oh, gosh, sorry, Mr. Woodburn. Please go back to the web site; click on CONTACT US; and in suitable format file your complaint using sign language!!!! [double-meaning pun intended!] Had just a little contact with Mrs. Toji, but am sure she will enjoy your "finding"! Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 127 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:31 pm:    Correction. Should read, "Closed my eyes...but did not notice any change (in the website, that is)..." Anonymous   Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:42 pm:    Jerome- Look at some of our recent spec language, where we were asking the contractor to install Owner furnished signage. I am not happy with it, because it doesn't totally define the extent of the contractor's work. Suggestions would be welcome to improve it. I also don't like "including but not limited to" lists, but wasn't sure how else to convey what we wanted: A. Products: The Owner is furnishing interior signage under a separate contract. Coordinate with Owner to obtain OFCI (owner furnished, contractor installed) interior panel signs that are required to be in place prior to building occupancy. Examples of such signage include, but are not limited to signs: 1. Posting occupant load in assembly spaces. 2. Identifying features of accessibility with the international symbol of accessibility. 3. Identifying emergency elevator operations. 4. Identifying delayed egress locks and other security features located within means of egress. 5. Identifying public rest rooms, to the extent required by code. [Posted anon. because it is an ongoing project] Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 374 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 03:56 pm:    oh my gosh: that signage web site that has the link for "blind customers". that was the funniest thing I've seen all week! Russ Hinkle, AIA, CCS Senior Member Username: rhinkle Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 04:04 pm:    I did some work for a local chain gas station. There was a fire extinguisher with a sign over it saying "fire extinguisher". Of course it also had this in brail. So when there is a fire in the gas station, the blind guy who drove up in his car feels the fire, runs inside, feels the sign (not the extingusiher below it)and heads back out to to fight the fire. Still makes me laugh. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 200 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 04:06 pm:    Had a discussion recently with an architectural graphics consultant with whom I had worked several years ago. She told me that fewer architects are retaining her services on typical projects. When signage is included in the general construction contract, it is usually on the order of a performance oriented, design/build item. In Texas, there is an accessibility inspector who will come out and look at the finished building and gig you on any non-compliant items, which I have always assumed included signage. I will be willing to bet that local code jurisdictions around the state take a varying interest in what these guys find, however, the state agency in charge has the authority to levy fines on non-compliant projects (up to $1,000 per day) so even if you can get a CO, non-compliance can get expensive. Some building types are ridiculous easy in relation to accessible signage (strip shopping center shell), others are much more difficult (a public school). It has been my recent experience that this is almost always the last item to be considered (usually during construction) and one of the easiest to underestimate the complexity and the cost. On a public building, you will be needing to budget 1 compliant panel sign for each door plus 5 to 10 percent more for other openings and conditions. At $50 per sign (materials and labor), this adds up to $15,000 for a 300-door school facility and will include between 5 and 10 different sign types); this does not include wayfinding and directories. Maybe not a lot money in the whole building budget, but kind of a nasty change order surprise that the Owner and Architect will probably not want to see. I have been associated with signage for 3 airports, several destination resorts, and a number of public buildings. Even modestly complex buildings can take several days of someone's time to correctly design signage. Since these panel signs are not inconspicuous, it is beyond me why the designers would not want to address it earlier than the day before the Bidding Documents are issued. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 562 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 08:49 am:    We always include signage when designing a school. In addition to the accessible signage, directories and wayfinding, fire officials are often requiring reflective room numbers at each door. Since they have the addressible fire alarm systems, they want to be able to quickly find the room that comes up on the annunciator. This includes one and sometimes two more signs per door, including doors that would otherwise have not any sign. Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 10:42 am:    I find Ronald Geren's assessment of the Code required signage to be quite accurate. In reviewing this recently, I was surprised how little signage was actually code required. In our practice we rarely include signage as part of the construction documents - usually the Owner contracts for signage directly themselves. We occassionally get caught a off guard when a building jurisdiction asks for specific documentation on the signage that is being provided as a basis of building permit review. Also I've wondered if the Owner signage consultants/providers follow through on all code requirements. We design some sizable projects and despite the lack of direct involvement on our part in the signage on most of these, I have not heard of any problems with the final results. John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 66 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 04:00 pm:    Another source of mandatory (but often overlooked) signage requirements are fire prevention codes. Depending on adoption and enforcement these can stipulate requirements for tenant identification signs at secondary doors and exits, sprinkler valve room signs, signs identifying spaces containing electrical disconnects, fire protection equipment, fire lane markings, and the like.