Ceramic Tile Expansion Joints

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Author Message Anonymous   Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:00 pm:    A tile subcontractor advised on a job that "expansion joints are required where tile runs contiguous for 25 feet or more in any direction". Is this based on an ANSI requirement, TCA recommendation, or building code? Are expansion joints for tile work typically shown on the drawings? Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 276 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:30 pm:    Materials and asemblies differ, but TCNA includes ANSI A108.01 in the front part of the guide. Item 3.7.3 states 24-32 feet on center or 8-12 feet where exposed to direct sunlight. In my experience, they are NOT shown on the drawings, rightly or wrongly. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 130 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:40 pm:    For new construciton, I recommend showing them on the drawings (floor finish plans) otherwise what you see is what you get. I loath leaving things to chance or the contractor's option. It may be important to control their location (other than over slab expansion/control joints per TCNA) to cleary show design intent and be coordinated with tile face size and pattern. Some of the more general conditions can be provided in the spec. A renovation will pose additional challenges, particularly of it is tile over tile. Hopefully the original expansion control joints in the tile were properly located. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 08:07 pm:    The following is based on current recommendation from TCNA: EXPANSION/CONTROL JOINTS A. Comply with TCA Method EJ171. 1. Provide expansion/control joints where indicated on drawings, and as follows: a. Interior: 20 feet to 25 feet in each direction b. Exterior: 8 feet to 12 feet in each direction c. Interior tilework exposed to direct sunlight or moisture: 8 feet to 12 feet in each direction Dale Roberts CSI, CCPR, CTC Senior Member Username: dale_roberts_csi Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 08:34 pm:    I would recommend the expansion joint size and location is determined by the A/E and shown on the drawings. Any construction, expansion or isolation joint in the substrate should continue through the tile work. Always include a perimeter soft joint (these are the easiest to hide and the least objectionable). Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 283 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 03:52 am:    I specify compliance with TCNA and ANSI as appropriate for the conditions and I always require that they are shown on the shop drawings. Since I don't control the drawings, at least the shop drawings give the Architect an opportunity to check the final placement. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 11:01 am:    I am dubious that the expansion joints are really needed. Take the condition where the expansion is due to sunlight exposure. If the tile and the substrate both expand you do not need a joint. Note that such joints in the concrete do not occur in suspended slabs. If the tile were to expand, even 1/8" in 12 feet, but the substrate did not you would see the tile's bond to the substrate broken. Thus you would expect to see loose tiles in a slab exposed to sunlight. Dale Roberts CSI, CCPR, CTC Senior Member Username: dale_roberts_csi Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 07:10 pm:    Mark, in the tile industry we have thousands of different materials and minerals that compose tile or stone. They all contract and expand at different rates, some very different than concrete. You last statement actually hits the nail on the head. I sit on the Ceramic Tile Institute of Americas’ Technical Committee (CTIOA). The most common job failure we see in the industry is lack of expansion joints. We have a term to refer to this tile condition you speak of. It is called “tile tenting” where the tile will shear off the substrate (due to the expansion of the stone or tile) causing a hump in the floor. On a vertical installation you will have areas where tile falls off the wall because of lack of expansion joints. Yes this does happen. It will not happen on every job or all the time, but it does happen. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 848 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 02:20 pm:    I concur that you need to show these joints on the drawings -- unless you honestly don't care where they are. when I've had tile contractors locate the joints, they seldom show up where we might like them for design reasons, and usually show up where they are most convenient to locate. Also, some tile contractors will not warrant their work unless there are expansion joints. in addition, with the very large format tiles that designers seem to want to use these days, you don't get the easing of the design you used to get when the floor tiles were 6"x 6" and a latex modified installation was used. when you have 1/4" or 1/2" grout joints every 6" or 8", you could probably get a way with not having defined expansion joints. I had a project four years ago with tiles that were some ridiculous size -- 24" x 48" comes to mind, and of course, the designer wanted 1/8" joints. with a very large format tile like that, you're essentially installing a ceramic floor over the floor. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 296 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 03:00 pm:    It's also important to have expansion joints at the junction of wall tile and floor tile. Several years ago we did an 18-story post-tensioned concrete building. The ceramic tile specifications called for perimeter expansion joints but these were not detailed on the architect's drawings, and so was constructed with grouted perimeter floor joints. There were several instances of "tile tenting" as noted by Dale Roberts above. Since that time I've cautioned my clients to detail tile fllor/wall expansion joints, and not to rely on the specification alone to cover them for this condition. And I fully agree with Anne--if we want visual control of where expansion joints are located, they need to be shown on the architect's drawings.