Where do you specify Fire Safing?

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Author Message Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 12:33 am:    Certainly in Div. 7, but where under Insulation or Under Firestopping? For both MF95 & 04 please? Thanks Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 689 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 12:50 am:    Depends. If you look at MasterFormat 2004 structure, you could use 07 84 00 "Firestopping" or use the level 3 number, 07 84 56 "Fire Safing," or, if you don't mind levle 4 decimal numbers, 07 84 56.13 "Fibrous Fire Safing" (if applicable). For MasterFormat 1995, it would fall under 07840 "Firestopping," or you can create your own level 4 number and title, such as 07842 "Fire Safing." MasterFormat 1995 didn't list a generic "fire safing" title, but it did include "fibrous fire safing." So, logic would say that a more generic title could be used if there were other types of fire safing that weren't fibrous. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 12:54 am:    Thanks Ron, I had been been including it in 07210, not a problem in the past, but recently it was causing some confusion and before I revise the specs for dozens of projects I wanted to get a feeling from other specwriters. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 971 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 10:05 am:    Is fibrous fire safing actually useful in a building anymore? and if so, where? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 587 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 10:37 am:    between the spandrel panel and the floor slab in a curtainwall system for one. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 690 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 10:45 am:    Many floor-to-floor, floor-to-wall, and floor-to-curtain wall assemblies use mineral fiber (or rock wool) as a part of the joint assembly. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 972 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 10:54 am:    I've seen it as part of an assembly for curtainwall, but I thought the code required that assembly to prevent the passage of smoke and hot gasses. Would a fibrous be capable of doing that? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 691 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 11:07 am:    The assemblies usually include materials in addition to the mineral wool fiber, such as an elastomeric fill or mastic to seal the joint on the top-side. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 453 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 11:32 am:    I include it as part of 07 84 46 (07842)Fire-Resistant Joint Systems. The systems approach allows inclusion of the fill or mastic seal Ron refers to, and makes sense because the assembly and not the individual product gives you the required rating. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 04:48 pm:    George is correct in specifying this in a Fire-Resistant Joint Systems spec section (where I specify it). I do not think a Firestopping section is the appropriate place for it, as Mr. Geren proposes. I do not specify these assemblies as UL listed, unless the design team is using a UL listed assembly as basis of design - which most do not. There is a very tight prescriptive requirement for these UL listed assemblies, many designs will not meet the requirements. But it doesn't really matter. There is much more to this topic, the best information available in an article titled "Perimeter Joints - What’s the right thing to do at the joint between the floor assembly and an exterior wall?" which you can find here: http://www.nibs.org/JBED/JBED_Summer07.pdf This is the best article I have found on the topic. One thing the author neglects to go into is the history behind the code requirement for fire safing, which I encourage all to read about in the IBC Code and Commentary. These two bits of reading should bring one completely up to speed... Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 692 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 05:49 pm:    A fire-resistant joint is still firestopping. It stops the fire from spreading through the joint, the same as it does for through penetrations. And, yes, I agree it could be placed in the section George mentioned. MasterFormat 2004 doesn't have a section number for that specific title, but it does have 07 84 43 "Fire-Resistant Joint Sealants," which is still under the firestopping level 2 number. The number and title of the section George provided is what MASTERSPEC provides in their library; and I think the number and title is quite appropriate since it deals with "systems" and not individual "components" of a system, which is what the current firestopping level 3 and 4 numbers seem to indicate. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 142 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 07:17 pm:    We use 07 84 00 - Firestopping and Smoke Seals. The name was the office standard when I arrived grafted to the new numbering. We also have 07 84 20 - Interior Firestopping and Smoke Seals, because our projects usually break out into seperate "Core and Shell" and "Tenant Improvement" permit and bid packages. The two Sections are alike except that 07 84 00 also will include building envelope related assemblies like edge-of-slab firesafing. A lot of our work is permitted through California's OSHPD, and they insist on UL listed assemblies. As noted, these can be very tightly perscriptive. But there are often several UL assemblies applicable to each situation and whenever we can, we allow the Contractor to make the selection. Basically, we are performance specifiying, with providing UL listed as the first criteria.