Welded door frames question

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Author Message Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 257 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:46 pm:    When the specification indicates the following: Fabricate frames with mitered or coped corners, and continuously welded full face weld and full web weld ... does that mean the frames come knockdown to a fabrication shop, are welded there and then come to the job site or are they ordered from the door frame manufacturer already fully welded? What about when the frames are galvanealed? Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 884 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:59 pm:    I have never heard of anything but the welding being fully done by the frame manufacturer. Hard to imagine a competitive price situation when another process/"player" would be involved [added cost for transport and work????] Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 258 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 03:03 pm:    Thanks, Ralph. In this case, it is someone telling the project architect that by buying knock down frames and welding them in their shop, they are complying with the sepcified requirements. When we asked them how they protected the galvanealed frames after the galvanealing was compromised by welding, they said they planned to put some galvanizing paint on the weld. The project architect called someone local to ask about this, and we were told that its "standard practice". But our understanding of fully welded frames is the same as yours, they come frome the factory fully welded. I was just wondering if anyone else had run into this. Anonymous   Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 07:40 pm:    If you are talking about onesy-twosies, then it's not cost-(nor typically time-) practical to order factory-welded frames; the "standard practice" referred to is factory-welded frames for "large(r)" quantities (with appropo lead-times) and shop-welded by local (door) supplier for "small(er)" quantities (when "I need it now" is typical). William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 745 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:08 pm:    Tracy, Ask for a sample corner. If they do a lot of it, they should provide it. I always ask for a sample corner for a submittal anyway. Since this is a proposed substitution you deserve the comparison anyway - they need to prove their statement. What you are likely to see is NOT a mitered corner ground flush and smooth, but a butted corner, and perhaps not even in the same flush plane (though it is possible for them to do that). If they can't give you the corner detail you want, then reject them. As to the 'repair' of the galvanealed surface, don't accept it if it is for an exterior frame. True welded frames are coated after welding. If they are interior, don't worry about it (unless they are frames to an indoor swimming pool or some other wet environment. Next time, state that your protective coating is applied after welding. Require mitered corners only. State that they are to be welded by the fabricator, not just factory welded. Here is something else. Their work is not going to be able to be used for any labeled door. Why, because a knock down frame indeed can be manufactured to meet various label requirements. However, they are required to be assembled the way that the knock down manufacturer instructs that they be assembled. To deviate from the assembly instruction voids the label. Though they can be done to comply, what it takes is submittal of the proposed modification to the frame manufacturer, and most labeling organizations then require that the manufacturer then inspect the frames after fabrication to assure that the modification was done correctly. Not inexpensive. If you have no labeled openings, then, no problem. If someone tries to tell you otherwise, then you call the manufacturer for the knockdown frame the propose to use and talk to them. And you also require that the contractor submit to you a letter from the "Frame Manufacturer" (not the guy modifying them) certifying that the additional fabrication performed on the frame does not void the label. The owner is owed that proof - its the owner that is going to have to bear the burden when they finally figure out how to start implementing the annual inspection of labeled doors and frames for installed modifications. I actually have a sample in my office that I use for show and tell of a true welded frame, and a knockdown frame that has been welded to be an imitation of the welded frame. William John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 944 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 08:57 am:    The galvanealling process is one done to the raw stock that the door frame is manufactured from so it is never applied after welding. Hot dip galvanizing is not done on door frames because the heat probably will warp the frame. All welded frames, therefore, have touched-up welds. Frames are often welded in the shop by large distributors in this area. And they are able to work on UL products because they are certified to do so. Once a frame is welded, it takes up a lot of shipping volume (think more money), so I would not expect them to be shipped very far. This may vary depending upon what region of the country you are in and how close to a manufacturer one is. Several door and frame manufacturers have told me that fully welded frames are not really stronger than face welded. Especially true, I think, when installed into masonry and grouted. Some of what differentiates one manufacturer from another is the shape of the "tabs and slots" at the coped joints that interlock to give proper alignment. The face can be mitered even though the entire frame profile is not. (A true miter, including the web, must be fully welded because they don't interlock. I would not accept this, myself.) The advice to get a sample is a good one (at least from manufacturers you don't know). William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 746 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:03 am:    John is incorrect on some points, and unfortunately, so am I. Hot dip galvanizing is done to the steel sheet, before it is formed into a frame shape. That's my error. Most of the other comments that have been placed here do not relate to hollow metal doors and frames, which is what I address, and with the way the original question was phrased with fully welded mitered corners seemed to be headed. You generally don't get welded mitered corners on the lower end standard steel doors and frames anyway. Some do a pseudo version, which is with all the tabs thus looking like (and often is) a knock down that was welded after assembly. I can believe the some standard steel door and frame manufacturer's will state that a fully welded frame is not as strong as face welded frames - I have heard it before, but, its not entirely correct unless you have a heck of a lot of tabs at the corner and just weld the heck out of it - very uncommon. Most tabbed frames do not have fully welded joints at the corner, they rely on the tabs for the back side, and face welds for the front. Hollow Metal Manufacturer's Association has standard specifications for both types of frames. Quoted segments below are from their standards. Galvannealed process is not dissimilar to hot dip galvanizing "Steel that is zinc-iron alloy-coated by the hot-dip process followed by heating the steel to induce diffusion alloying between the molten zinc coating and the steel.The resulting finish is a dull matte surface. ASTM A 653/A 653M. Coating designation “A” series for imperial, “Z” for metric." It too is done to the sheet stock before it is formed into frames. HMMA does not recognize any other application process for galvanealing. Fully welded frames are, "Also called Full or Fully Weldedand/or Full Profile Welded. Corner/Perimeter joints shall have all elements of the frame member continuously welded: soffits, stops, rabbet, faces and returns. Faces and returns may be welded either internally or externally. Soffits, stops and rabbet shall be welded internally. Flush joints at internal frame members shall be face welded only; soffits, stops and rabbet are not welded and appear as a hairline seam. Indented joints at internal frame members shall be internally reinforced and welded. Joints at faces, soffits, stops and rabbet are not welded and appear as a hairline seam. All exposed welds shall be finished smooth with no visible seams." That's it, no tabs, no partial welds, no 'face welds only' on the frame corners, no screws, rivets, no bends, and no 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts'. If you get a true fully welded frame and a frame that is one of these other fabrication methods, you play with it a bit, it is way so much stronger/rigid than the tabbed and welded. Where John states that a true miter including the web, must be fully welded because they do not interlock he is correct. That he would not accept this is to state that he tosses out the highest quality corner (both aesthetic and strength when correctly done) as recommended by the Hollow Metal Manufacturer's Association themselves. HMMA has a TechNote (HMMA-820 TN02-03) specifically about "Continuously Welded Frames" complete with illustrations of how the frame is cut and welded. One could simply reference this document in their spec to assure you get what you ask for. Its a nice short document of 4 pages with clear explanation and some 13 illustrations showing which seams are welded, which are hairline, and what the joint should look like. When it comes to labeling (UL or other label organization), it depends on the shop and the manufacturer. It has to be done in accordance with the frame manufacturer's instructions. Some shops that do a lot of welding have an 'in place' process for many manufacturer's where they can do this. But its not just that the welder at the end of the process is certified by UL, its that he is approved to perform the process on the specific frame product as it itself was tested by UL (or other approved testing lab). Shipping - fully welded frames, of all types, are shipped with a spreader between the bottom legs to make a 4 sided assembly, the spreader is removed at the time of installation. Yes, it costs more to ship boxed up frames than it does to ship a lot of loose jambs and top rails. But.... When I go to the sites of the major manufacturers, they are doing complete fabrication at their factory shipping direct to the job site. Its the tabbed type, where it is essentially a knock down frame that is then welded, that has its final fabrication elsewhere. For instance, many of the major hollow metal manufacturers also state that they stockpile products from Steelcraft and other fabricators of standard steel frames at their location for final fabrication and shipment in their area of business. Anyone can go to http://www.naamm.org/hmma and their literature is free online, downloadable pdf files and a few with '.doc' files for sample specifications. Note that HMMA also has standards for knock down hollow metal frames. William George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:29 pm:    Steel Door Institute is similar. Masterspec distinguishes between them thusly: SDI is "standard" and HMMA is "custom". In fact the differences are few and subtle. SDI's definition of "fully welded" is similar to HMMA's quoted above. Regarding strength of knock-down vs. welded, we had an excellent presentation by HMMA last year at our CSI chapter. When a question was raised about relative strength and the statement was this: "Knock-down frames meet the same performance testing standards that welded frames do." If equivalency means meeting minimums, that's one thing, but I am convinced that fully welded frames are much stronger. SDI is at www.steeldoor.org I have no preference for one organization over the other. Merely pointing out that both will give you very similar language to reinforce what is "standard practice" in the industry.