Can a hollow metal door be installed ...

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Author Message Anonymous   Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 02:15 am:    Any one care to offer their educated thoughts? Manufacturers? Specification on this? Do's and Dont's?? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 430 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 10:47 am:    Why do you need to do this? I can think of a few reasons why you wouldn't want to... Anonymous   Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 10:57 am:    George can you list the why nots, this was done by the architect, not our choice, I need ammo to use to get them to change it...actually I think its an error, but they are being pig-headed... Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:24 am:    Having over 25 years specifying doors and hardware, I would strongly recommend not installing hollow metal doors in an aluminum frame. Does the term "dissimilar metals" suggest anything? How do they propose to isolate them? What type of hinges do they propose to use? This could be a factor in electrolysis as well. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 568 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:27 am:    Well since its in Florida, I asked the Architect for a Florida Approval assembly - wow can't wait to see this. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 569 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:29 am:    oops, I wanted to keep this annonymous in case the Architect read this forum...so much for that idea. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 570 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:31 am:    actually, based on my client not reading the specs, I doubt they would read this board, but in case they do...my apologies for calling you guys pig-headed. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 911 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:49 am:    If the application is interior and the door is painted, I see little liklihood of dissimilar metals difficulties. I would say as long as the prep is done correctly (i.e., to the same standard dimensions), I see no reason why it would not work. Why you'd want to is a separate issue. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 571 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:52 am:    John, I agree interior a/c space it would work, but this is an exterior door - update, my client is not pig headed after all, they agreed it was an error, however, they want to know if other than corrosion issues - would be any other problem with this configuration...oy vey. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 431 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 01:12 pm:    Besides dissimilar metals and hardware issues, I was thinking of fire ratings (moot point for exterior doors, I guess) and of standards. For an HM door, you have volumes of information either from HMMA or SDI to reference, but with a hybrid, how do you determine things like clearances, hardware locations, and so forth? Who does the standards for aluminum frames? AAMA? I don't know off the top of my head. Do you really want to go through two sets of standards and compare and contrast? I guess you could write your own tolerances and so forth, based on such a comparison. It just strikes me that to do this right is going to take a lot more effort than most of us spend on typical door and frame situations. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 278 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 02:03 pm:    With an exterior door, dissimilar metals is an issue; you would have to use stainless steel hinges. And there is the appearance conflict between the sharp 90 degree edges on the extruded aluminum frame, and the typical rounded edges on the door. In my experience, shops are set up to pre-fit and pre-machine door and frame combinations such as: steel doors and steel frames; wood doors and steel frames; wood doors and aluminum frames. I suppose they could do steel doors and aluminum frames, but I have never heard of this combination. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 854 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 02:35 pm:    Seeing no positives in all this, here, might be interesting to hear why the client "thinks" or feels this illicit combination has some advantage[s]-- wondering why it didn't ring as error in the first place. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 572 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 02:42 pm:    Ralph, being the senior guy in your firm, you have to ask that question....on this project there are two project managers, one older one younger, guess which one wants to know why he can't use hollow metal with aluminum? Anonymous   Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 02:49 pm:    I usually abhor the explanation, "It just isn't done!" since that doesn't really explain anything. But here, for once, it may be appropriate... Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 855 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 03:09 pm:    Gosh, Jerome, I know I'm old, but also know I am NOT omnipotent!!! Just trying to learn something if there is something there. These young guys sometimes raise a point even with their "far-out" [is that the term?] questions. Who was it who said, "Learning; learning; learning!" Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 770 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 03:14 pm:    It's sort of like wanting to give your kids an explanation for your rules; sometimes all you can say is "because I said so". There are very good reasons for the rules, but they are complex and long-standing. Review the posts here and try to summarize all of them for someone who is asking "why not?" And if they still don't understand, then it's because we said so. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 396 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 02:20 pm:    The issue, when I've had to deal with it, is about installing a flush or opaque door in a storefront/entrance framing system. There are flush aluminum doors that can be specified. Opaque or insulated panels may be installed in stile-and-rail aluminum doors. And flush fiberglass doors are available. ... all of which avoid hanging a steel door in aluminum framing. Pardon my ignorance about electrolysis, but where's the problem between steel doors and aluminum framing if stainless steel hinges are used? Stainless steel fasteners hold the framing together. Under severe (tropical?) environments, will the stainless steel hinge and screws pass the minute electrical current which will cause disintegration of the steel? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1012 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 02:34 pm:    My experience has been that aluminum frames do not hold up as well as steel frames. I recently went through this at a school project. The kids were literally tearing the doors of the hinges. The main problem was lack of floor or pipe stops and reliance solely on overhead stops. The building had booth steel and aluminum doors. The steel faired better and was easier to repair. The aluminum frames use aluminum hinge reinforcements that stripped out. Storefront manufacturers should really use stainless steel hinge reinforcements.