expanding spray foam insulation

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Author Message Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 99 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 09:25 pm:    I have been asked to consider “The Icynene Insulation System” manufactured by Icynene Inc. for a major retrofit of a college dorm that includes replacement work down to the studs on exterior walls. Anyone have any comments or experience with this product? John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 886 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 08:52 am:    Icynene is nothing more than low-density open-cell urethane foam, though their marketing efforts try to make it out to be something so unique that no one else can do it. I think that spray foams are an excellent way to insulate when complete consideration is given to the hygrothermal characteristics of the intended wall system. Foams can be air barriers or vapor retarders or both depending on the material selected. As long as the design takes this into account, they can work well, and in fact, those properties can make them very desirable. But it is possible to create conditions where moisture cannot properly leave the wall system (such as spray foam on the interior of old solid masonry mill buildings). We have used spray foam on the inside face of architectural pre-cast panels. In these conditions, we are using a higher density closed cell foam such as BASF's Walltite. There are a number of manufacturers of foam, both low density and high density, so be sure you do some research and don't assume that Icynene is the only one who can meet your needs. (I though I recollected a prior discussion in this forum on this topic but I couldn't find it. Perhaps I'm mistaken.) Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 137 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 09:11 am:    If you do a search - upper right corner - for Icynene you will find 4 or 5 posts in the archive area. Scott Michael Perez AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, MAI, LEED AP, NCARB Senior Member Username: sperez Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2007 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:18 am:    Some things to think about regarding the Icynene system. I suggested using this system for a project retrofit in Louisiana in 2003, however, after further analysis there ended up being a few issues that we had to consider. 1. Icynene is an "open-celled" system. Consequently, you need to be sure which way the foam will "creep" as it expands. I believe I just recently saw that open cell tends to creep outwards as it expands, which makes it a better situation for attacking the foam from the outside (ie, removing the exterior wall system, and foaming from the outside). Closed cell (I believe) tends to creep more inwards to find the crevices, etc. Obviously this is great for insulation purposes, but you need to make sure whoever installs it does a good job and is careful around areas where it could expand to the point of pushing drywall, electrical boxes, etc. out of place. 2. I may be mistaken, but open-cell products do not provide the same R-Value as "closed-cell" products. 3. We found the cost considerations for open vs. closed to come out where we could afford much more with the closed cell product. However, we did find that the installer was not cognizant of his application around electrical panels, boxes, etc. and this created an issue where it actually pushed the materials out of whack. We had to make sure the applicator went back through the buildings (at his cost) to "true" up all the existing panels and boxes as they were pushed out away from the wall. Additionally, we were able to use the excess materials to create damns and effectively use it as blocking around plumbing, light fixtures, ceiling and wall vents, etc. as they became more adept at spraying the materials. Our waste went down significantly in order to reduce costs. for items like that. We sprayed the backs of bath tubs, showers, around plumbing lines, etc. This keeps noise down inside, as well as gives any leaks an automatic place for the water to go in lieu of onto our gyp board, ACP ceiling systems, etc. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:35 am:    I would like to jump in here with a question about foam, if I may. I am in discussions right now about open vs closed as well on a project. Isn't there an IBC code or some Fire Code that does not allow use of open cell? I thought I read it somewhere but do not remember. I went to IBC Chapters 719.2, 719.2 and 719.3 and then looked in Chapter 25 0r 26 can not remember off hand. Did not see anything, but I could have sworn there was something about not using open cell. Melissa Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 640 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 11:04 am:    Unless a specific, local amendment was adopted, the IBC does not differentiate between open-cell or closed-cell foam insulation. Foam plastic insulation requirements are in Chapter 26, Section 2603 (2006 or 2003 IBC). Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 759 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 01:25 pm:    I've used icynene in some projects, and its a great product for odd sized or shaped areas. Typically it comes in more expensive than some other products, and that is why we didn't use it more regularly. It was introduced to me by an architect who used it in the Alaska market quite a bit; the advantage is that it stays soft "angel food cake texture" so it doesn't get brittle and break like some foams. it does require a licensed/trained applicator, which lessens the availability. I think its a good product, but we seldom got it on projects due to cost. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 02:27 pm:    Thank you all for your informed input. We have decided to open the specification up to BASF and others and to also limit the scope to voids in boxed studs and similar potential cold spots. The interest in this one material was one of those increasingly common instances where a product's sustainable design marketing caught a project team member's eye, and they wanted IT, rather than proceeding from problem to research to solution. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 271 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 01:10 pm:    When using Icynene or any other open-cell foams, I strongly suggest you consider the use of an appropriately located vapor barrier.