Calcium Silicate Masonry Stone

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 514 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 08:29 pm:    Any Calcium Silicate experts out there? Can Cast Stone be fabricated as a substitute for Calcium Silicate Masonry Stone? Explain why or why not please. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 704 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:30 am:    I am not sure why you pose the question as 'can cast stone be fabricated as a substitute...'. You only need to look at what cast stone can do. Continental Cast Stone (and I think others) makes both custom shapes as well as modular shapes. Modular meaning various standard rectangular shapes ranging from block sizes up to some pretty large sizes (3 by 3 feet or so), and machine made as well as made with several different face finishes, not just a smooth face and a variety of colors. So, they can make as much variety of size and texture as calcium silicate, or special finished CMU units..maybe even more variety in size than the others. And, they are set like masonry units, except that once you get up to a certain size, the manufacturer will tell you each unit will need to be tied back directly with anchors, not just joint reinforcement. Does that answer your question? I am not sure. I have done a number of projects over the years that used large quantities of either Calcium Silicate or modular cast stone. Both types have done very well over time. I have even had to do them with Type S mortar which neither manufacturer recommends. No problem with either. William Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 515 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:44 am:    William, on a project the Architect client insisted we specify Calcium Silicate, now during construction the GC proposes to use Cast Stone and the Architect is scratching his head looking to us for guidance, frankly prior to the project we had rarely specified Calcium Silicate, so not having much experience with it, we ask for help from those others on this board with that knowledge. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 705 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:17 am:    Ok, first, when a contractor wants to use cast stone for anything, you need to find out just what they mean. Many of them really mean precast concrete, and that can't be set in mortar. Many of the remainder mean it comes from 'Sonny's midnight cast stone factory', a genuine american made product fabricated in the garage out back right next to the chevy. Some, its just a minor cast stone fabricator of little known quality assurance with a name only slight better than Sonny's. A few really indicate they are looking at a major regional or national level supplier. I only work with the later. The calcium silicate product cannot be used as the bottom course on a wall, regardless of the material that the horizontal at the bottom of the wall consists of (earth, concrete, various pavers, stone, etc.) You need to have a stone course of some kind. The manufacturer of the calcium silicate should have this kind of product as part of his materials or as a recommendation. Cast stone, personally, I would not bring it down to the bottom of the wall either. Just not a good idea for a product like this. You might be able to get away with it, but, I personally would just nnever take the chance. Most calcium silicate cannot be made with the special finish on more than 1 adjacent face. That means that if you turn a corner with a unit, you have to quirk miter a corner joint. You can't do a clean miter, the product is too flaky and will crumble. So if you have a number of corner conditions or articulation in the facade or columns, all the corners are going to be quirk mitered. No, they won't/can't do a special shape for this. Not as far as I know they can't, but, I have not had to deal with the product in the last year+. Maybe they have changed, but, I would think not. Cast stone, the modular type, they don't like to do the special finishes on more than one adjacent face either, but, some of the finishes they can and will do. The custom shapes, they can do it, but still prefer not to. But it can be done. I think if you are looking for the very heavy texture such as 'rock face' that you are going to end up with quirk miter corners on either product. Those are the major qualifications, and they both really run about the same. The big thing is that you need to make sure that the cast stone being considered is from a reputable regional or national manufacturer, not some off brand. And as some guidance, most of the time we have seen the calcium silicate product come in more expensive than most cast stone, though often times not significantly more than the good regional/national fabricator of cast stone's price. That's the major points/issues I have encountered. William Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 516 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:35 am:    Wow Thanks William Of course at this time in the morning I will have to read this again in a few hours after I get a few hours of shut eye - you must be on the west coast, I don't know too many specwriters dumb enough to be up at this hour working on specs, lets see its 2:34am EST...its time for bed, time to wake the wife for her meds and time to call it a day/night...whatever. Thanks again for sharing your experiences. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 706 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:49 am:    I just happen to be up fooling around, in Second Life, with my email up in the background notifying me of things. So, while I wait for something complex to rez in SL, I flip over and read non-business related emails -grin! East Coast here. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 517 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 08:20 am:    William, this is what u do to pass the time at 2:49am? I usually do laundry on my 'freetime' at 2:49am while everyone is sleeping...hmmm, maybe Melissa is right about my priorities. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 707 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 09:32 am:    oh, sometimes its laundry, twice a week, when I go fencing and don't get back until 11:30 pm. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 518 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:42 am:    fencing - well if it keeps your body and mind fit, why not, more power to you - BTW - how sharp are those swords? Hey aren't the Olympic Trials for fencing over already? Maybe London in 2012? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 708 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:52 am:    Ha! Not sharp, there is a button in the end of the foil and epee about the 1/4 inch in diameter, and we all wear protective equipment - such as fabrics that are a mix of ballistic resistant nylon and kevlar. Olympics are not for me. But, I am currently ranked 7th in the US in the 60+ Mens Foil group, and the veterans do have a world championship event each year. The top 4 ranked get to go each year. Last year I finished the season being designated the first alternate - one away from going. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 27 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 11:40 am:    Jerome, I found this on the web. Calcium Silicate Units such as Renaissance Stone are high density, severe weathering structural masonry units. They are not made from cementious materials, they are pressure formed and autoclave cured. To the designer and installer, this means that these calcium silicate units have a slightly different set of detailing requirements. Unlike cement based units, calcium silicate units do not exhibit shrinkage due to initial drying. Therefore, it is not necessary to specify & install continuous joint reinforcement the way we would with cement based veneer units (see right collumn). When used in conjunction with brick veneer, the expansion joints in the brick simply continue through the calcium silicate units at the same spacing. For more information on the detailing of these products visit www.arriscraft.com. http://arriscraft.com/pdfs/n_dataSheets/F-04230-AData-2004US.pdf and http://www.maconline.org/tech/materials/stone/Arriscraft_Detailing/arriscraft_detailing.html Definition of Cast Stone (from the Cast Stone Institute) : Cast Stone is defined as "a refined architectural concrete building unit manufactured to simulate natural cut stone, used in unit masonry applications." Cast Stone is a masonry product, used as an architectural feature, trim, ornament or facing for buildings or other structures. Cast Stone can be made from white and/or grey cements, manufactured or natural sands, carefully selected crushed stone or well graded natural gravels and mineral coloring pigments to achieve the desired color and appearance while maintaining durable physical properties which exceed most natural cut building stones. Cast Stone is an excellent replacement for natural cut limestone, brownstone, sandstone, bluestone, granite, slate, keystone, travertine and other natural building stones. http://www.maconline.org/tech/materials/stone/Cast_Stone_Detailing/cast_stone_detailing.html I have specified "true" cast stone in the past but it has always been value engineered out with knock-off look-alike precast concrete units substituted. Wayne Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 11:46 am:    I am currently using Arriscraft on a project and had to add a comment about this topic. I checked the manufacturer about water repellent coating and they do not recommend the use of one on this type of product. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 709 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 11:55 am:    They don't recommend the water repellant, its not really needed for that. However, if you are using a light color, and the units are in a splash zone for getting splashed with dirt in weather (during or after construction), the water repellants serve to increase the surface tension for water causing more of it to run off rather than soak in. This helps keep the units cleaner than if not used. This is even true in areas of high air pollution, the particulate matter tends to wash off rather than stick to the surface of the units where water 'soaks into' or dries on the units face. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 12:18 pm:    William, I am using a light colored unit and it is underneath a fabric canopy as part of a concrete stem wall/retaining wall at an entrance to a building. You would think that the manufacturer would told me about that while on the phone with him earlier. I can see using the water repellent coating for purposes you stated above, and to me it is similar to the mentos and diet coke, if you would allow me to go there for a moment ;) If you cover the mentos with a coating it does not allow for nucleation thus the huge fizz geyser does not happen. (I guess I am watching to much Mythbusters) Correct? So -- your are telling me that the water repellent coating would help prevent dirt collection and moisture retention but, I thought calicum silicate was similar to sand particles and that water/moisture would not be able to absorb into the unit and would run-off anyway? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 710 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:42 pm:    haha, you have fallen victim to the an argument based on scientific reasoning...sans practical observation. Not to laugh at you Melissa, just that what you say makes perfect sense from pure reasoning. But, falling back on my youth, its time to do a bit of Mr. Wizard. Go down to your samples area, grab a sample of Arriscraft and head to the nearest water source. Now, not streaming water, or you will miss the real situation. You want to have a very slow source of water, like drops. Even better is an eye dropper to drip a single drop of water onto the surface of the sample so that it does not run off, but saturates in - wow, look at that, first drop just saturates as fast as if you were putting it on unsealed concrete or CMU. Do this repeatedly adding another drop after the first has been absorbed. Continue to do this until you notice that the the bottom of the sample is becoming damp...the water is actually being absorbed into and draining right through and out the other side if you stand there dripping on it long enough. For those of you without such a sample to play with, I just did this myself, and I used the tightest grain, smoothest finish sample in the Arriscraft box. But you should do this for yourself, seeing really is believing. And the water repellant is not a coating. It is an integral additive. And if they don't like using an integral additive than a zero percent solids penetrating sealer like a silane will work. But would rather use the additive to both unit and mortar. Either way, its not a coating. It won't change the sheen or color of the unit. It too saturates in, and the way it works is that it increases the surface tension so that water cannot get into the pours of the material and beads up/washes away. Over a long rain, it may saturate, but then it has had time to wash off the dirt and even clean the air of the dirt. I use a penetrating sealer on my architectural precast too for the same reasons. As to the manufacturer telling you this - it increases the price of their material and makes it more likely to become victim of a VE or substitution. William Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:52 pm:    I will go try that experiment William! I am always up to doing interesting things like what you described! Thanks. As far as laughing at me...well...the next time I see you...you will pay for it...nah..I get laughed at alot at my house and frankly I laugh at myself alot as well! If you can't laugh at yourself then you are in trouble. I do appreciate you helping me understand calicum silicate unit masonry better though! AND to the VE...I know it will happen. Job is overpriced all ready! William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 01:59 pm:    Melissa, be careful with threats and remember to read above. I play with swords for fun, exercise and competition -grin! Remember the sage advise that it is always better to carry a sword than a grudge -grin! William Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:05 pm:    Not a threat William. A promise. ;) As far as swords goes...I have a semi-automatic that would probably help take care of you before you could get close enough to me with the knive. HEE HEE. JUST JOKING. I AM A NICE SPECIFIER. I DO NOT HURT ANYONE!!!! John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 871 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:08 pm:    A semi-automatic what? Can opener, perhaps? or garage door opener? Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:12 pm:    You want me to tell you which one of my semi-autos I would use for a sword? Nah, I would want to keep that secret besides I think mine are illegal in the US to have in possesion.