shortage of insulation?

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 97 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 01:37 pm:    I have a contractor submitting to use 2 different manufacturer's fiberglass insulation on the same project. It's not a huge project, but they are claiming a shortage of materials is forcing them to get from 2 different sources (Mansville and Owens Corning). Anyone heard anything like this? Sounds strange to me. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 190 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 01:50 pm:    Happens a lot with metal studs too. I would not be too concerned with it, but I would state in the field report that they are using an unsubmitted/unapproved product and ask for a letter from the contractor (via correction item in the field report), that the additional product meets the requirements of the specifications and the approved submittal, etc... I would not neccessarily ask for a second submittal unless I am harboring specific concerns. This situation happended to me just recently. My specs for window flashing were for Moiststop PF, and they used MoistStop NeXt and PF and another even higher grade that I cannot recall at the moment, all because of what they could get in time. They demonstrated to me in writing that they met and exceeded my base spec quality level and that was that. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 01:53 pm:    These products are commodity products and assuming they meet your performance criteria (and we presume J-M and Owens Corning do) does it really matter? Is it any different than getting two or more manufacturers of gypsum board on a project (which was quite common during the drywall "shortage" a few years ago)? Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 98 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 02:08 pm:    I agree, it doesn't really matter, I was just curious if anyone else had heard that these items were in such short supply. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 328 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 05:06 pm:    The only snag I can think of is Johns Manville is the only known source of Formaldehyde free blanket/batt insulation. At least it was the last time I looked. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure someone will. May mess up a LEED scorecard. Wayne Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 343 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 05:12 pm:    Wayne, how about the recycled cotton fiber insulation manuf by Bonded Logic, I've never specified this, but it looks good for LEED? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 06:37 pm:    "Recycled cotton fiber insulation" does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Something about fire resistance? Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 192 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 07:33 pm:    Can you say "Mold Food." You know they used sawdust in the old days. Let's do that; it would super green - not wise, but very green. Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 430 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 07:47 pm:    Surprisingly, the Bonded Logic material has a Class I (now Class A under the IBC) rating. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 07:49 pm:    That too! There is also cellulose insulation - made from wood fibers, also green, also not wise - supports vermin! I just remebered that my parents had some kind of fiber insulation (I want to say "rock wool", but it resembled cotton balls) in the attic of their 250+ year old house in Connecticut. It did a real good job of supporting deer mice - my Dad averaged trapping about 2 a day in the winter, depending on how cold it got outside. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 495 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:51 pm:    if you have a damp building, the cotton insulation cannot get below 4% moisture content, (fiberglass is about 1-1/2%) and they have to treat it with borate to resist insect and rodent infestation. the earlier versions of cotton insulation were not treated, and still had the seeds -- which made for VERY nice mouse condos inside the walls. its not very high in R value either -- like a 3 or 4, so the wall thickness has to be greater. My guess is that in a dry climate like Arizona, its probably not bad, but it just seemed like a lawsuit waiting to happen in the northwest. the owner liked the idea of it because there wouldn't be fiberglass fibers in the air (there would be cotton fibers instead) but I think if you have fiberglass fibers in the air in a completed building, you have WAY bigger problems than just your insulation type. Cellulose also holds moisture in it, and has some of the same issues. (including a very low R value) John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 689 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 01:53 pm:    Actually, cellulose has a slightly higher R-value than fiberglass depending on installation method. It is treated with boric acid as a fire-retardent and insecticide. Mice (and squirrels and bats, etc.) will nest where it's warm, and where they can gain entry, regardless of the insulation choice. While I would not use it in commercial installations, I think it's just fine in residential work. As with other moisture issues, drying potential is a factor, and most houses have enough capability there that, barring a leak, moisture will not be a major issue. In addition, anyone who has ever done renovations knows that old fiberglass gets so dirty and dusty inside a wall that it probably would support mold growth with the dust as a food source. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 331 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 05:43 pm:    Old fiberglass gets so dirty and dusty inside a wall because the air leakage (in both directions) is so great the insulation serves double duty as a filter plus the air leakage (in both directions) drys the insulation when it get wet. It also drys the studs when they get wet. Anonymous   Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 04:50 pm:    LEED is mute on formaldehyde content of insulation. Mark C Reardon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 01:29 pm:    Do be carefull that the contractor does not mix and match the two products if there is 1/2" wall thickness. ASTM C-585 does not address wall thickness below 1" and the manufactureres have gone on their own merry way with variations up to 1/4" OD. Not much of a mismatch, but sealing the joints with lap tape becomes difficult. Stansen Specifications Senior Member Username: stanspecs Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 12:26 pm:    Back on the issue of formaldehyde for a moment - does anyone have insight into that issue? Most manufacturers still use phenol-formadehyde as a binder for batt insulation fabrication. How does it compare to urea-formadehyde as a possible carcinogen? If the spec calls for formadehyde-free insulation, is it really limiting it to Johns-Manville alone? Is any other batt insulation acceptable within that requirement? Ellis C. Whitby, AIA, PE, CSI, LEEDŽ AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 35 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 01:56 pm:    I believe that formaldehyde free batt alternatives to Johns-Manville exist: for one, Grid-SHIELD Rx, made by Schuller International, Inc, uses an acrylic binder. I must note that I have no experience yet with the product. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 137 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 02:59 pm:    The biggest formaldehyde issue we ran into was when we worked on a zoo project. Manufacturers stated that their material contained no formaldehyde. What they meant was that the material contained less formaldehyde than the federal regulation regarding the minimum threshold for saying a product is formaldehyde free. The zoo would allow absolutely zero and they did not care what the government said. They wanted zero. Don't know if this situation has changed in the past 5 or 6 years, but it was a hurdle back then. All I can say is make sure that the product is "free" and not just "free enough for the government to say it's free". Hope this helps. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 93 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 06:33 pm:    Schuller is JM. "Manville Sales Corporation is renamed Schuller International Group, Inc. Manville Corporation's worldwide fiber glass-based business...." from Google search. Page listed does not work.