Archive through May 16, 2005

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Author Message Michael Kundinger, CSI, CCS New member Username: mikek Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2005 Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 04:44 pm:    My company specifies seamless sheet vinyl flooring for areas within hospitals and surgery clinics that require a seamless floor due to cleanability requirements. This product gives us many installation problems not to mention dealing with concrete moisture restraints. I know of 2 other seamless products, epoxy resin terrazzo and rubber flooring that could be used, but at an increased cost. Is anyone aware of other seamless flooring products that may work in this application? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 377 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 04:57 pm:    I am not sure if they have a specific product for medical applications, but they have more than 1 system for santiary flooring, and that is Hubbellite America, Inc. Anonymous   Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 05:22 pm:    Take a look at Teknoflor™, which can installed with cold welded or heat welded seams. http://www.metroflorusa.com/products/teknoflor.html Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 107 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 08:15 pm:    Resinous Floors are too many to list here, go to: http://www.4specs.com/s/09/09670.html Have had good results with products from Tamms, Crossfield - Dex-o-Tex, Pacific Polymer, DuraFlex, too name a few. As always proper preparation and installation is the key - always specify Manuf approved and trained installers. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:44 am:    We've used many of the resinous floors Jerome mentions with great success. The key, for slabs on grade, is a high quality vapor retarder (i.e. not 6 or 10 mil poly), no drainage layer above the retarder and moisture testing of the slab prior to flooring installation. Sheet vinyl and the other floors mentioned perform well when the substrate is properly constructed and prepared. The modern low VOC adhesives are extremely suceptible to moisture and alkalinity issues. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:59 am:    I'd like to hear more from Don on concrete slab placement. I normally specify a min. 15 mil vapor retarder and would like to eliminate the drainage layer, but meet with a lot of resistance from the Geotech & Structural Engineers here in So. Calif. This frustrates me to know end because I was involved with the Green Sheet on moisture vapor emissions when I was in Phoenix. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 68 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:19 am:    Tell the geotech and structural consultants to look at the latest ACI recommendations. Drainage layer above a vapor barrier was supposed to reduce slab curl, but caused a lot of other problems. Anything stuck down with conventional adhesives and anything non-porous (including epoxy terrazzo) will be sensitive to moisture problems. I do seem to recall seeing some epoxy adhesives that are supposed to be less of a problem, but I don't have any experience specifying them. There are also a couple of companies out there selling products that when applied to the exposed surface are supposed to reduce the moisture to an acceptable level. Again, I have no experience specifying them. The seamless vinyl will probably be the least expensive of any of the products discussed so far and does not have any more problems with slab moisture than any of the other products listed here. I like the resinous floors for durability, but they will be more expensive. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:30 am:    I have, but the structural guys are still hung up on slab curling. I just got a copy of the new ACI 302.1R, and have already copied one owner. Unfortunately my firm's position is that if we don't do what they say, were on the hook for the remediation. Mark Gilligan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 11:01 am:    As a Structural Engineer (California) I have had to deal with this problem. Most structural engineers and geotechnical engineers are reluctant to change old practices. They do not truely understand all aspects of the problem but only know that they have used the sand and gravel layers and are afraid to change. In reality the issue of moisture in concrete slabs is complex and I would suggest there is no true concensus. If I was being truely cynical I would wonder if much of what is done is truely necessary. The Architect by tradition has primary responsiblity for dealing with the building envelope and thus the role of his consultants is to provide him input so that he will have the information to make the right decision. I would suggest you discuss with your consultants, what you see their responsibilities as being and what they believe are the consequences of alternate approaches. Interestingly, I have regularly been the one who has tried to get the Architect to adopt ACI's recommendations. I would suggest that following ACI's recommendations is evidence that you, at least in part, have followed standard of care in the industry. Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 11:57 am:    Richard: Thanks for the plug on the CSI Phoenix Chapter's Green Sheet on Moisture Vapor Emission. If anyone is interested in a copy, send $10.00 to: Tim Garver, CSI, CDT Dunn-Edwards Paints 1872 E. Broadway Rd. Tempe, AZ 85282 Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:07 pm:    Ronald, No Problem. If you look inside the front cover you will see my name as a member of the Technical Committee at the time. We even had a presentation in my office by George Donnelly and one of the structural engineers still wouldn't budge on the gravel layer "crusher run fines" over the vapor retarder. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 34 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:56 pm:    My humble opinion only... For a non-critical slab, that is, one that does not have fork lift traffic or similar industrial requirements... I would rather grind and fill a slab that curls a bit rather than be on the hook for a $20/sf epoxy terrazzo installation that bubbles because the drainage layer above the vapor retarder becomes saturated with moisture which travels directly through the slab, only to be "stopped" by impervious flooring. Of course, there is a give and take depending on the type of project and the requirements of the owner. Sometimes the drainage layer may be required, but for office, apartment, etc. slabs, I'd prefer the bit of curling over the ruined floor. I would certainly think twice before I detailed a project with a moisture retaining material directly below the slab. BTW: The epoxy terrazzo manufacturers I have spoken with recommend against the drainage layer and also want a moisture cure rather than a curing compound. That one sends the contractors over the edge. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 69 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:27 pm:    Owners, expecially reps for Owners who have done a lot of buildings, will go with what they have done before and may not be up on the latest technical recommendations. You can make a recommendation in writing using such terms as "best professional judgment" and may still be overruled; however, your documentation of your recommendation is your best defense when someone wants to come at you for a "design error." Of course, if your client backs down and there is a failure, you will be ... [insert favorite image here]. As for a consultant who will not keep up with the latest technical developments (ACI or MasterFormat 2004); they should be warned that their continuing relationship with your firm is based, in part, on their ability to remain current. Sometimes "tried and true" is just plain wrong. It is my understanding that some of the really nasty failures in VCT flooring installations have been not only due to reformulation of adhesives, but also due to the fact that VAT (vinyl asbestos tile) was much more permeable than VCT is. This fundamental change in materials makes the problem with moisture in slabs and adhesive reformulations much worse. Structural consultants who are not sensitive to the problems that may occur when any number of floor finishes are selected should be specifically counseled about their potential liability in this area. Inhouse consultants? I have found that an untreated, S4S 2x4 (about 40 inches in length) works as well on a consultant as a mule. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 43 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:47 pm:    You use MULES to beat your consultants??!! Talk abount an ass-whoopin'! Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 188 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:19 pm:    as another consideration: its the latex based adhesives that also cause problems. We have some medical clients who are going back to epoxy adhesives, which are not water sensitive. We also ALWAYS specify a Class A vapor barrier directly beneath the slab, and sometimes have to use that mule to get the consultants in line. (we have NO problem with the concept of a vapor barrier in the northwest, but in Arizona, its like we are talking to mules.... as for the slab curling: you can always do a wet cure if concerned about that. also: welded seam or seamless flooring: linoleum is used in health care a lot (by tradition) because it can be welded seam, and it is absolutely non-sparking (which used to be an issue with medical gases), and its comfortable to stand on. Mark Gilligan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 01:48 am:    As a structural consultant I found the following quote interesting: "As for a consultant who will not keep up with the latest technical developments (ACI or MasterFormat 2004); they should be warned that their continuing relationship with your firm is based, in part, on their ability to remain current. Sometimes "tried and true" is just plain wrong." When I proposed adopting ACI's recommendation to remove the sand layer, I received about the same resistance from the Architects as from other engineers in my previous employer. I am a moderately conservative engineer yet I have had similar experiences with other Architects when we do something different from their previous consultants. The resistance to change is universal. The reality is that few Architects will change consultants because they are not current. A case in point is the fact that engineers who do not understand the CSI approach to specifications and place long General Notes on their drawings seem to have no trouble getting and keeping clients. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 70 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 11:46 am:    Unfortunately Mr. Gilligan is correct about being current (did not mean to single out only engineering consultants). I have to admit that it takes a lot of doing to get me to change something that has been working. If it seems to make sense, I try to line up the other mules to see if it makes sense to them as well. This particular forum (are we all mules?) is very helpful in providing me information on such matters. So much of what I see doesn't make any sense, and when I can't get anyone to explain it to me, I will dig in my heels. When I can get a overwhelming majority of mules to concur, I use them on the other mules. If that doesn't work, I will resort to the 2x4. I really would like to rely on my consultants to keep current, understand the underlying technical issues, and explain it in a way that even an architect can understand. I have known many engineering consultants who are very good at this, and they can add significant value to the design process. I have also known several who just want to be told what to do and push the Drawings over the table. When the firm has a long standing relationship with a consultant who has a relatively successful track record on our projects, it is difficult to convince those in charge that our projects might be better off with someone else doing the work. However, when the firm begins to experience a noticeable increase in problems related to a consultant's work (during design, during construction, or post construction), they will react. The reaction is not immediate, but it will take place. Kim A. Bowman, CSI, AAIA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: archspecmaster Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:58 am:    We do not change the wheel if it is not broken. Period. End of discussion. We (I) look at products and systems about twice a year and evaluate upgrading and changing for technologies sake. I just started specifying 15 mil reinforced underslab vapor retarders only about a year ago. Prior to that it was 10 mil, then 6 mil. Our consultants are not the one's we have problems with, it is the contractors. They don't read the specs and then submit wrong stuff that doesn't even come close to the specs, and wonder why we reject everything. Contractors are harder to change than architects. David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: dave_wyatt_csi_cca_ccca Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:27 am:    My firm has had some unusual challenges related to seamless flooring in veterinary facilities and zoos where routine sanitizing is a strict requirement. We have had good results with polyurea flooring, a spray-applied rubber finish that can be disinfected regularly without degradation. For futher information, type "polyurea flooring" into your browser and you will find several good sources of product information. Owners of equine veterinary and breeding facilities are beginning to request padded seamless floors. Abacus Sports Floors, Inc. of Lancaster, PA is a source of information about this. Obviously, the critical factors of slab construction, vapor barriers, and curing will determine the success or failure of the best flooring systems. The comments of Harris, Matteo, Jordan, and Whitacre get to the heart of the matter. Mules are getting a bad rap in this discussion! They happen to be the most intelligent of equine species, the hardest working, and the easiest to train. With these good attributes, you can soon forgive their bizarre appearance. Curtis Brannum, CDT New member Username: cbrannum Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:56 pm:    As a rep. of several sheet vinyl goods I must agree with much of what has been said here. In an effort to meet cleanability demands, environmental requirements and still make a product that looks good many sheet goods do not have the ability to withstand moisture in concrete as they once did. However, with proper slab prep and installation assistance from the Manufacturer or Distributor of the product many of these problems can be avoided. All of us in the flooring world want to avoid failures and bad reputations, therefore I encourage anyone specifying seamless, sheet good systems to consult with the product rep. and or their technical services people if you are in doubt about project conditions and the product performance. Mr. Wyatt has pointed out two areas where sheet goods are ideal from the standpoint of slip resistance, looks and cost. However, these areas require input from the Manufacturer as to maintenance requiements, stain resistance and installation. For myself I would rather suggest an alternative product be selected or that mine not be used at all rather than risk a bad reputation. Finally, any rep. should be willing to assist in these types of situations. Get to know us....were here to help.