Product Information-- Just one episode

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Author Message Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 491 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 04:06 pm:    HOW BAD............................ by Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Cincinnati, OH ................ we ask both Professional AND Industry members-- are the websites you work with? is the product information and binders you rely on? The reason we ask is that the situation appears to be declining more and more rapidly. Flatly, it is more and more difficult to find information you want easily, quickly, without divisiveness and incredible convolution, and in a form and format that provides it in its entirety and with current accuracy! For example-- a binder in the library contains information that is at odds with our specifications. Now the specs were written based on previously available binder information, and through choices made thereon. But supporting data is not now in the binder [??????] even though the binder was updated earlier this year and the inserts are dated 2005. To the web site! Naturally! After six clicks and dropdowns we come to the similar page to the binder, BUT, in spite of its identical dating [2005] the information is far different-- there is MORE information and more products not included in the binder. Oh, we did eventually find the one product that was specified in a separate “flyer” on the web site [that is not included in the “full line"????? binder]. Perplexed, we make contact via the web site inquiry screen to explain our dilemma. Today we receive a brochure—all 8 pages-- without any note or explanation. But again with another set of differing information-- some even different from both binder and web site! Now what we found on the website is, by golly, in this brochure, BUT it is buried in summary form in the specifications written in microscopic font [do fonts come in negative numbered sizes????] so obscure, hidden and innocuous as to defy discovery and use without high-end and time consuming scrutiny. Do you really want to sell our clients these products? Do you really intend that we specify these products? What are you thinking? We submit that the highly innovative and creative marketing folks have waylaid the pertinent information in favor of some, perhaps, award winning glitz and formatting. They ain’t trying to really service inquiries and provide information. In like manner the IT folks and web masters glory in the convolution and “cutesy” software stuff that minimizes utility in favor of numerous “clickings’, drop-downs, convoluted entry programs, and electronic wizardry—they, too anticipate selling no product [oh, but isn't this a "totally awesome" web site, what with the fireworks, the fade outs- the gallery of products, etc.] Well, reluctantly we must give those folks their miniscule due in this case-- they didn’t resort to a half-clad or mini-skirted young woman pictured to entice [!!!!!] us into specifying the associated line of doors. There is yet that one glimmer of hope! Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 04:25 pm:    I found the same kinds of difficulties recently with some carpeting websites. I could not go to the website and get the information I need about all their products. All I can figure is that they do not want us to be able to specify their products without directly contacting their sales reps. I suppose they think they will sell more products, and exclude more competitors, by forcing the direct sales people in our faces. I’d wager that they are more likely just pushing specifiers to hunt for other manufacturers that have more useful, thorough, user-friendly websites. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 209 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 06:12 pm:    Flash animations and website registration are 2 items that put me off of a manufacturer, creating an overall negative impression. The better product reps are almost as frustrated as we are. The zoomy site that marketers create may appeal to consumers, but it makes the job of the spec writer more difficult than they can ever imagine. Some more complex sites can reward a persistent user with a high quality of information, but often what I see is complexity that seems designed for its own sake. My best advice to manufacturers is to keep their marketing and advertising departments departments away from website design. Maybe Mr. Baxter has a point about such websites forcing us to deal with their reps. Of course, they would then have to hire better reps. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 755 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 06:23 pm:    I have a tendency to specify manufacturers/products whose websites/binders are easy to find information. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 453 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 09:30 am:    I have been known to use the "contact us" option to explain my experience with a web site - whether that experience is good or bad, satisfying or frustrating! Remember, praise works better. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 492 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:56 am:    Please forgive me for saying too much but thought this was only fair and proper to do [apology to Mr. Gilboy also] In being critical, we create the need to be helpful, descriptive, and solution oriented. We need to, at least, present a list of ideas and attributes that we feel will address and solve the problem-- that is the professional way! So in regard to web sites of manufacturers of construction materials, equipment and systems, we offer our thoughts and suggestion for: THE NEAR-PERFECT WEB SITE 1. On the opening page, specifically show in a prominent and distinct manner, your company name, your company affiliation [Division, Group Member, Brand, etc.], full company address, phone number/fax number/e-mail address for real person information source. DO NOT require a log-in, or filling out of an inquiry sheet [we will provide our name and other data when and if we request information] 2. Design the site utilizing the full area of the screen; use easily read fonts; FORGET the outrageous, silly and purely “advertising” concepts. For the most part your web site has been sought out and in that, you DO NOT need to sell the viewer, you NEED TO INFORM them. There is NO NEED to be cute, controversial, sensational, provocative or openly “show biz” in your presentation. Colors for example, should be used to differentiate, call out, separate, or identify-- there is no need for fireworks, flash shows, or time-consuming “nonsense”-- just “give us, the facts, ma’am” [quote from Sgt. Joe Friday, on Dragnet a TV police show of years past]. Your BEST RESULT in being specified and used is predicated most of thetime on how well you provide information and how complete and pertinent it is to the viewer. 3. Also on that first page, provide two or three columns of “click-on” tabs for specific products within the product line [i.e., doors, frames, windows, borrowed lites, etc.]. IF you have several brands within your line, note each for direct access IF you have commercial and residential items, provide separate access to each and DO NOT intermix them. Realize that you need a different approach to the residential market [more glitz and enticement] than in the commercial field [where quick access to complete information is the hallmark] 4. Create and display all this NOT within your corporate image or configuration or concept BUT TOWARD the user’s perspective, which maybe for a specific product, or specific brand name. USE a “pedestrian” test group who does not know your line and information like you do, to see just how easily they can navigate the information tracks you’ve designed-- adjust to all comments resulting 5. Maintenance of the site is important and we understand that it is costly, but like a roof, don’t just “buy” the site and then forget it-- it will NOT repair itself, update itself, or coordinate itself. IN ADDITION, you must assiduously coordinate your printed data with your electronic data-- they have to contain and say the identical things, without exception; change one and YOU MUST change both! [This is intended to be just a start. We encourage all colleagues to add items to this list and to further explain their problems encountered, ideas, needs, intentions, and desires in using product manufacturers’ web sites.] We also suggest that manufacturers take advantage of the good information on the “Manufacturers Area” of this site; www.4specs.com Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 216 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:50 am:    Ralph, Somewhere in your posting you most likely said what I am about to say but here is my $0.02 worth. Webs sites should not require registration and passwords to enter. I cannot rememeber a dozen arcane and cryptic passwords without the hard copy tacked to my workstation. I want the information "right now" not later in an e-mail reply. Do not force users to download software to view the web site. At my office, only the IT Administrator can install software. It is not uncommon for me to call the contact number to explain "I am on your website and connot find..." Usually the target is an nonintuitive button or label that is cleaverly disguised. Wayne Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 145 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:31 pm:    I just encountered a particularly bad example. Tried to find something on a large, well-known aluminum curtainwall manufacturer's website. Heavy on pretty pictures of buildings using their systems; details and data not easy to find. Am I a registered user of that website? Don't remember. Probably not. But even if I were, I doubt if I could remember my user ID and password. Really need to talk to someone. So I click on "contact us" -- long on-line form to fill out for inquiries. Rather not go through all that...oh, but there's a toll-free number! I call it. Voice mail. Because of the volume, it may take 24 hours for a response...then I notice a link to find a local rep. Click it. Enter my area code (that's not too hard or time-consuming...) Ah, results! Local rep's name. No phone nunber. 'Nother form to fill out...AAAAARRRRRGH...! Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 493 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 01:04 pm:    Problems we got-- but there is hope. Following from a young lad in our office, 2 years out of architecture school [a co-op school so he has added experience]--- Sites that try to be too “slick” with needless flash-based interfaces and poorly-designed navigation menus continue to be a problem. The balance between looking cool and being functionally sound is difficult, and manufacturers sometimes miss the mark. Conversely, smaller manufacturers often err on the side of being overly simplistic, often failing to put enough design time into their websites. In this case information is sometimes lacking and product information may be incomplete. Just off the top of my head, Armstrong’s website is one that I remember to be pretty easy to use, and full of good information. It’s not by any means the best, but I visit it on a semi-regular basis and rarely have trouble finding what I’m looking for. Details and specifications are another matter. Most manufacturers now include these on their sites, but they are only sometimes conveniently located and accessible. Registering with the manufacturer in order to get to these details is a pain, and (I believe) obnoxiously unnecessary. The simple fact that one is downloading the material generally indicates that the product is either being considered or specified – so why the need to sign in? On the positive side, more and more manufacturers are offering this data in a variety of formats, making it easier for most users to deal with. The registration and sign-in process on many sites is irritating and generally turns me off from using that particular product. It’s telling that most of the major manufacturers have eliminated these features in favor of free data for anyone who visits the site. I would think that most professionals have no interest in constantly providing their information to manufacturers – especially if they’re just checking out a product for the first time, or are simply interested in learning more about it. Also, “case studies” that aren’t actually case studies irritate the heck out of me. Calling a few photos and a brief description of the project a case study is just wrong (and is a trap that we’ve fallen into that by the way). Case studies should contain detailed information about specific design issues or strategies, and should obviously indicate how the product in question assisted in the resolution of the issue. One more – I hate getting to a site on a search for photos of how the product might look on my project, and finding either few photos or pictures of low quality or resolution. We deal in a visual medium – the more clear, big pictures of as many different products or conditions possible, the better. Off the top of my head, it seems like the major furniture manufacturers do a good job of showing their pieces in a variety of ways, from stand-alone to numerous different settings. This is always a help, regardless of the product. None specifically, although since it is much easier to update electronic information, one would expect that it is always the latest and greatest. But this is not always the case. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 158 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 01:21 pm:    <<large, well-known aluminum curtainwall manufacturer's website>> Robert: I suggest you post the name of this manufacturer. Starting a list of really bad websites ... "The Specifier's Website Hall of Shame" ... might convey an important message to the manufacturering community. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 756 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 01:31 pm:    .....and a "Specifier's Website Hall of Fame"! I am always looking for good websites to put in my "favorites". Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 02:14 pm:    Another thing I would add to the list of bad website practices is the tendency to list products only by their manufacturer designated numbers or names. That works great when I am looking for a known specific product, but when I am trying to figure out what product to specify for a given situation, or what product to specify as comparable to another manufacturer’s product, I don’t want to have to open and read about every single product in the manufacturer’s vast inventory until I finally stumble across the most appropriate one. I like to see the products categorized in such a way that I can zero in on the one I’m looking for without taking all day to do it. Jennifer Young, CSI, CDT, MAI Senior Member Username: jenn Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 02:23 pm:    I want to first say to you all that I am in total agreement with you about the difficulty in navigating these sites. As a product representative, I wish that they would be more user friendly not just for you, but for myself in the field as well. While I am always there for my specifiers, designers, etc., it's very helpful for me when you can access some of the info you need from the web - immediatley when you access it. I think I can speak for a great majority of the reps out there when I tell you that I have always given feedback such as this when I have had an opportunity directly to the manufacturer. But, I rarely see results. How they work with the information is a whole other matter. Keep in mind, the people designing & mandating what are on these sites are typically marketing & IT folks, not sales reps & specifiers. They also need to have a site that will appeal in many cases to many segments of people who buy their products, not just us commercial folks. I'm not defending them, just giving you all some insite into what responses I have been getting in the 7 years I've been in this industry. And that's been feedback I have had in numerous areas, right down to the way the binders & sample cases should be designed to fit in libraries, and most years I just end up being dissappointed with what they come out with and end up having to apologize to my client base when I am updating them with new tools that are only 80% effective in their design & user friendliness. Don't forget to spec products based on their performance, the manufacturer and how they STAND BEHIND the products, and the great reps out there that get the job done for you. We are in most cases just as frustrated as you, and we are letting our companies know about it! Believe me! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 454 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 10:57 am:    One other thing on my wish list: when I view a page that has exactly the information I'm seeking, and I want to print that page to put it in my project binder, the page IS NOT set up to print all the information! Part of the information is lost, usually off the right side of the page. And that's usually the description, which is a big part of what I want. How hard can it be to place a "click here for print version" button on the site? Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 137 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:05 am:    Lynn, I certainly agree with you about how anoying that is. As a part time web developer, I can tell you that it is very easy for the MFR to fix that with a simple print.css style sheet. But in the short term, upgrade your web browser to Firefox and you will not have that problem any more. Firefox offers numerous print options and an excellent print preview, and a Make it Fit function. No more blank last page! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 455 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:44 am:    Unfortunately, that decision is not in my control. I'm an in-house specifier and our IT department makes software as well as hardware determinations. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 138 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:58 am:    Hmmm...I always thought you had a stronger rebelious streak that what I am hearing now :-) Just tell 'em that you need it as another critical tool to get the job done. It's a free software program. Not like it's going to cost them anything other than 5 minutes to download and install. It's a very small program, less than 5MB! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 456 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:02 pm:    LOL! I'll give it a shot - thanks. Stansen Specifications Senior Member Username: stanspecs Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 01:25 pm:    Lots of great input on this one. Guess its a favorite subject with many of us. I would like to have a search box available on the home page. I would be great if there were two actually; one to search products by NAME or TECHNICAL INFORMATION, the other to search RELEVANT ARTICLES. I hate searching the big sites for one product in hundreds made by the manufacturer in all their company divisions, only to get 90 hits on articles that happen to mention the product I am trying to get technical information for. I don't need or want the added marketing push. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 01:55 pm:    Lynn: If you are just looking for a printed copy of the website screen, try clicking on file/print and selecting Acrobat PDFwriter as your printer and print the screen directly into a <pdf> file, which can, of course, be saved and printed as needed. I use this method regularly to save e-mail messages I wish to save in hard copy. PS: Thank William Pegues for the above suggestion. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 298 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 09:57 am:    I know this thread is almost two years old, but... Some colleagues of mine from my previous life as an acacemic sent me this link (through the Association of Computer-Aided Design In Architecture--ACADIA); http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/architecture.html. But even better, is the whole website, (home page is http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/). The website also has a check list of items that will kill your website (see http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/does-my-web-site-suck/does-my-web-site-suck-checklist-part-one.html). Manufacturers! Check this out!