Riot Glass

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Author Message George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 05:51 pm:    OK, I give up...what is it? One of our clients is asking for "Riot Glass". Is this, as I suspect, just a slang term, and if so, what does it mean? Bullet resistant? Blast? Lexan? Any one heard of or used riot glass? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 743 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 06:12 pm:    "Riot Glass" is a slang term for laminated glass. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 595 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 09:10 am:    I have just done some research on security glass. There are different tests available for attack resistance, forced entry resistance and ballistics resistance. Assuming that ballistics is not the issue, check out H. P. White Laboratory's test procedure HPW-TP-0500.03 (available on their website www.hpwhite.com), and ASTM F1233 Standard Test Method for Security Glazing Methods and Systems. Both of these standards include a sequence of physical attacks using various tools. The glazing is then classified according to number of attack sequences the glass is capable of resisting. Reviewing the web sites of some glass fabricators, it appears that some relatively thin laminated glass products would meet the lowest grade of attack resistance. However, I don't know the specific composition of those assemblies (yet, I'm not done with my homework), but I would not assume that ordinary nominal 1/4 inch lami would do the job. I would suggest that you need to get much more specific direction from your client about their expectations. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 176 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:20 am:    John makes a good point: The design team needs to counsel the owner in the wide variety of tests, and the corresponding plethora of products out there that meets those various requirements. The Architect cannot possibly decide on which product is best suited for a certain application without first having some "expectation criteria" from the Owner: WHAT THREAT LEVEL ARE THEY TRYING TO STOP?. I feel the Owner has some obligation to reveal, or at least provide some sort of minimum base line regarding what threat level to which the Architect needs to design. If an Owner merely asks for "bullet-proof"* glass for a pharmacy window, the Architect - assuming they consult UL 752 - is faced with the prospect of 8+ rating levels. Absent any input from the Owner, which one do they select to design to? * Correct term is Ballistics Resistant Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 172 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:16 pm:    The required level of protection may in some cases be dictated by the owner's insurance carrier. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 207 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:52 pm:    For this kind of "stuff", getting owners to tell you what standard to design to is difficult. Getting familiar with the standards and products can help direct the conversation, but it will still be kinda dicey. Typical laminate glass construction uses 30-mil PVB. There is UL 972 "Standard for Burglary Resisting Glazing Material" that requires a 60-mil PVB interlayer. It prevents "smash-n-grap" type attacks and is not intended to be ballistic resistant. I was in on a discussion about bullet-resistant construction where a specialty glass fabricator suggested in the absence of other guide lines from the owner, the Architect should inquire about what firearms the owner's security officers are carrying. Choose ballistic-resistant products that resist bullets from that firearm. The thinking is that the weapon most often discharged in that environment will be the security officer's weapon (shots fired by officer with his/her weapon, shots fired by someone who has taken the weapon, or accidental discharge). Feds require UL Level 3 (tested to resist shos fired with a .44 magnum handgun); I would hazard a guess that UL Level 2 (.357 magnum handgun) would be adequate in most settings (not a professional recommendation). Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 404 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:40 am:    I generally design to "high powered small arms" (UL level 3) if there is no specific design criteria from the Owner, although I advise them that this selection is preliminary and subject to their carrier's approval. in urban hospitals, we are designing for automatic long guns, and I forget what level that actually is. also: remember that if the glazing is ballistics resistant, the surrounding walls and ceilings must be as well -- otherwise, the perpetrator simply jumps on a chair, pushes up the ceiling, and fires down through the ceiling space. In addition if you are designing for impact resistance (like for the WTO riots that were in Seattle five years ago, ) you need frames that can withstand the impact as well. if the glass is going to deflect, which is what laminated glass does, it will need larger frame bites to deflect from and return to. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:28 pm:    My orginal question rises from a client rep suggestion to change the outboard lite of some normal IGU (no blast or ballistics required) to "riot glass". The client is fairly savvy about ballistics and blast requirements, both of which were required with great specificity on other components and assemblies in the project, so it surprised me that a slang term was used in this case. We have been pushing the client to give us tangible performance criteria, as suggested here, but I suspect that in this case, "riot glass" = "laminated glass" in the mind of the client. Thanks to all for the references and comments, which have been very helpful. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 175 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:39 pm:    We have an office building project with a curtainwall designed for blast resistance, but the laminated lite is the inner lite of the insulating unit, not the outer lite. The reason is that the outer lite is sacrificial, with the inner laminated lite providing more protection for the building occupants. If the outer lite is laminated, the inner non-laminated lite could still fracture and blow inwards, harming the occupants.