| Author |
Message |
Colin Gilboy
Senior Member
Username: colin
Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |    |
I removed the forum registration of Lester Hensley as I felt his postings went beyond what I wanted to permit. I was on vacation last week and did not take the time to caution him (as an advertiser) on no product and company promotion in the forum. He felt Marthe Brock's postings about BASF permitted him to promote his company and products. I had asked Marthe to update us on the BASF purchase and felt her posting was within my unwritten guidelines.
Lester Hensley asked me to open a question regarding the suitability of manufacturer's involvement in the forum and invite the specifiers to comment.
Here are mine:
1. Postings in the forum are emailed to about 150 specifiers and read by about 250 or so more. Permitting unmoderated manufacturer's postings means that a manufacturer has direct access to the email boxes plus other users that read the forum.
2. If not tightly moderated, manufacturers can post promotions as they want and this will destroy the specifier community discussions - as silly as a few of the discussion have been.
3. Forums are very delicate - and once out of control they are difficult to return to stable discussions. I have talked with ARCOM and have dragged my feet on having ARCOM promote this specifier forum to all their subscribers as I am afraid of too many "newbee" questions and how do I use MasterSpec questions.
Your comments please.
Colin |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 03:20 pm: | |
Colin,
I agree. Marthe's reply was in direct response to someone's question about a manufacturer's acquistion. This info is always helpful to specifiers.
I have e-mailed questions from the forum to some of my local reps for their input, but they respond to me via my office e-mail and not on the forum.
I also share your anxiety about Arcom. I think including them could possibly open up a whole can of worms. |
Helaine K. (Holly) Robinson CSI CCS CCCA
Senior Member
Username: hollyrob
Post Number: 244
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 03:24 pm: | |
I have emailed questions to reps and they have visited the forum and addressed the questions. |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 397
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 03:47 pm: | |
Even though I have occasionally asked valued reps to contribute directly, they have been reluctant to do so, perhaps sensing the delicate nature of these forums. They have responded to me and I have posted their information as it was pertinent to the discussion.
I think that is probably the best way to handle it. I know that there are a number of product reps who regularly contribute, but do so without promoting their products; they contribute construction and industry information in the same vein as Marthe did.
We do want this to remain as an open discussion area, and not have it turn into an info-mmercial. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 556
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 04:21 pm: | |
My two cents:
Colin, I support your decision about the recent post.
If there is a specific question about a product category posted by a specifier which a manufacturer is able to answer in a generic way, that's fine.
If the question is about a specific named product and the manufacturer can answer it, that would be okay with me. (If someone from BASF had answered my question about their purchase of Degussa, that would have been okay with me.)
I have mixed feelings about a soft-pedalled answer to a post by a manufacturer, when they self-identify. Something like: "As a rep for XYZ corp, our ABC model does this, but the DEF does not. Check www.xyz.firm." may be okay, but there's the potential for going too far.
Manufacturer's should not start a thread with a promotional message or intent. Manufacturers should not go off-topic with intent to promote.
I also like Lynn's approach a lot, because the poster can filter the message if necessary. I've used this myself from time to time.
I understand Colin's concern about overly widespread promotion of the use of the forum, but so far, it has been very well moderated. I have promoted it one-by-one to specifiers I know. Some just aren't interested in internet forums.
Hopefully, manufacturers understand the rationale for this. They ought to focus their energy on creating good products and good web sites. If that's true, their products will get specified. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 05:35 pm: | |
Colin,
I feel very strongly that anyone that wishes to participate should be allowed to do so.
I also feel that you should put your unwritten guidelines into written form, and that these should be a prominent feature of the forum, for all to see. If members stray outside of these guidelines, you can send warnings to them. If they don't cooperate, you can remove them.
It's a little harsh, in my opinion, to eliminate someone just because you are not happy that postings were "beyond what [you] wanted to permit." With no guidelines available, this is pretty heavy handed. If reps abuse this forum, I am confident that others will bring the abuse to the attention of the moderator, the abuser, and the rest of the members and this will probably fix the problem. Most reps do not want to risk hacking off specifiers...
I don't know that I can go along with the notion that these forums are "very delicate" and that moderators should worry overly about them being "destroyed" due to some occasional infomercial/advertorial type postings....
I observe that non product rep forum contributors are often allowed to post the most outrageous things, without (apparent) consequence.
I am an architect and specifier - not a product rep - and I have always preferred to be anonymous on this forum (just like all the others with pseudonyms - CR Mudgeon, for example). |
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza
Post Number: 190
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 06:41 pm: | |
Colin,
I could foresee the shear volume of product promotion postings making the 4Specs forum a full time read rather than a drop-in scan. I believe there are other legitimate venues for the types of postings that you would restrict. For instance, questions regarding use of specific specification software should be answered by the companies providing the software. Questions about CSI committees should reside on their respective forums - yes, I don't think they belong here and hope they will move, now that CSI has launched what appears to be a viable forum for that use. And product manufacturers have their own websites and industry aggregator websites on which to promote their products. I for one would be pleased to feel more welcome as a specifier on some manufacturer websites.
4Specs is a great village. If it grows into a city with a rush hour, though, I'm headed for the country. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 04:19 pm: | |
Colin,
I am a manufacturer and I feel that there should be absolutely no product promotion. I have used this forum to ask a few questions of specifiers thru the years, got my answers and went on my merry way. This is a great place to monitor what is going on in the industry. We have our place to advertise and the specifiers know where to find us. I like that it is a quick read also. Colin, you have done a good job keep it up. |
Harold S. Woolard
Senior Member
Username: harold_woolard
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 08:17 pm: | |
I know that this forum is for communicating for Architects, Engineers, and manufacturing reps, distributors and general contractors, subs and manufacturers to throw things out and see what sticks to the walls.
I became interested because a lot of my CSI friends use it and I have learned quite a bit by reading it daily. So far as product promotion, if the question draws a commit, I feel like I am better qualified to let them know what is available, that can help them out.
I feel sorry for one of my competitors, Degussa who was purchased by a good company BASF who saw fit to not update their web-pages correctly and I saw the out cry from your members to try and let them know that there web-page is important to keeping the materials that they had specified current information is still needed.
It has also let people like Hans W. Meier and Robert Johnson both voice their opinions no matter what the issue. It is like CSI, the need for both Professionals and Industry members, this forum needs commits from both. I think most Industry people whom I have told about this forum can get bored quickly with most entries and give up on it before sticking with it because they are trained to sell and not to listen properly or read between lines.
It is like a year or so ago when everybody was admitting the compensation packages, it was very widely different from West to East, Midwest and Southwest, as well as Northern states all showed different packages. I know working for a national manufacturer construction practices in California is widely different from Texas, even Dallas and Houston differ. I know codes in New York are different in San Francisco, and so on.
I consider Brett Wilbur, Doug Frank, J. Peter Jordan, Bob Woodburn all friends and I enjoy reading their posting, I just don't know how they have time to do these postings, but I'm glad they do. |
Tracy Van Niel
Senior Member
Username: tracy_van_niel
Post Number: 181
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:46 am: | |
If you look on the discussion forum page that identifies the various discussions, you will see that the product discussion heading says "No product promotion here". So exactly how can this be an "unwritten rule" as commented on by the anon above?
Colin: In response to your questions in the first posting of this thread ...
1. I agree.
2. I agree.
3. I agree. |
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 161
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:51 am: | |
Ditto Tracy's answer |
Brett M. Wilbur CSI, CCS, AIA
Senior Member
Username: brett
Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:56 am: | |
Seems like there is a fine line between "product promotion" and "product education". Information provided by manufacuters to educate the industry which is relevant or germane to the discussion should be allowed. I appreciate involvment by the manufacturers as they are the holders of the information, but agree that product promotion for the sake of sales is unaccptable. |
Jennifer Young, CSI, CDT, MAI
Advanced Member
Username: jenn
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:09 pm: | |
I would suggest that if someone needs product specific info that they ask to be e-mailed directly. I know the posting of e-mail addresses can be a touchy subject, but at least that way the information can get to the specifier who needs it and the specifier can regurgitate the info back onto the thread as they see fit. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
Just so you know I am not the same "Anonymous" that has posted earlier in this discussion. I usually post with my name but this time I prefer to remain anonymous because my company is a manufacturer.
The bottom line is that this is Colin's "bat & ball." If he says "no product promotion" then those of us whom post should follow the rules. Sometimes I have gotten close to the line of product promotion and Colin has advised me accordingly.
Although, I do feel that if someone is asking a technical question about a company or their products it's ok for the manufacturer to get involved to answer the questions...but if it gets in depth the manufacturer and the person asking the question should take their discussion outside of the Forum..."on their own time."
If we all follow the rules as Colin has set-fourth (or has explained when we signed up) then order will be in-place and no chaos. |
Mario J. Ibanez, CSI, CDT
Senior Member
Username: mariojibanez
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 06:17 pm: | |
Ditto anonymus posted July 25, 2006 - 04:19 pm.
As a mfg. rep. I really enjoy/appreciat the discussions that go on, on this site, some are of more interest than others. As such I do not need or want to read advertisments, but I understand there is a gray area inbetween. |
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