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David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt

Post Number: 1948
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2022 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

OUr Chapter recently received a threatening letter from a law firm. They claimed that we used a copyrighted image on our website. They are collecting money on behalf of their client. They would not take us to court if wa paid them a relatively small amount.

At first I thought this was an internet scam. After research I found this is a real law firm that is a copyright troll. They go around searching for copyrighted images on the internet. Then they send a letter and try to collect money.

Has anyone dealt with this before?
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza

Post Number: 720
Registered: 12-2002


Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2022 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Have not. But my initial reaction is that perhaps you might agree to pay the small fee once the firm has provided an affidavit indicating the name and contact information of their client that includes the statment that payment of the fee will permanently absolve the chapter from future claims for its use. I will bet you won't hear back from them.
Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA
SpecGuy Specifications Consultants
www.SpecGuy.com
phil@specguy.com
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski

Post Number: 2288
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2022 - 01:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I haven't heard of this either, but I'd (1) contact CSI and ask that question and (2) see if you can contact a friendly lawyer for another opinion. I also might try contacting that client, either by yourselves, or through that friendly lawyer. It still might be a scam. CSI has lawyer members. I'd definitely start there and wouldn't pay out without additional information/investigation.
John Bunzick
Senior Member
Username: bunzick

Post Number: 1889
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2022 - 02:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Yes, I have heard of this, although in your case it could be a scam. I am not an intellectual property attorney, but you should check on this further. If the image is registered with the US Copyright office, you are strictly liable for damages by definition, and it can be very expensive. If the image is not registered, you can still be liable for copyright infringement, but it is usually limited (I think) to the unjust gain you have made from unfair use. For your chapter, that could be zero as a not-for-profit. Also, depending on how you used it, you may have a limited right to use the image under the fair use doctrine.

I would think that the threatening firm has to tell you which image is in violation. Otherwise, you cannot correct the violation. You may be able to simply remove the image and be done with it.

However, and this is IMPORTANT, one should not use images without an effort to find and pay the artist for the rights to do so. Artists need to make a living, too, and stealing images for use by others is a big problem on the web. I can't imagine a specifier using an architect's creative output this way, so why a photo or drawing? Even if produced internally, I think that if you use a photo by one of your members; you should credit their work. There are literally many thousands of free-use images available online, and probably more that can be used for a small fee.

Please don't steal the work of creators.
hollyrob19 (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2022 - 01:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

SCIP Members enjoy the following benefits:

Lawyer On Call: Members are entitled to two free calls to LegaLine, the AIA Trust Legal Information Service. To access the LegaLine, call (800) 688-9780 and identify yourself as a SCIP member.

https://www.scip.com/profile/benefits/
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt

Post Number: 1949
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

According to the letter from the attorney other CSI Chapters used the copyrighted image on their websites, namely:

Sacramento
Great Lakes Region
San Francisco
Indianapolis
Minneapolis St. Paul

I have asked our the Puget Sound Chapter member that does our website to get a hold of these changpers. Mayber together we can form a strategy.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC
Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods

Post Number: 876
Registered: 08-2005


Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I took a quick look at a few of those sites, and they seem to be using CSI national's website template and server. This is probably not a local chapter issue, but more of a sole source or original source issue from CSI national.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt

Post Number: 1950
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

BTW, the offending image is just a simple road sign with the word "EDUCATION" and an arrow. I have not posted it here for fear of inadvertantly getting 4Spec and Colin Gilboy involved in the lawsuit.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC
Dan Helphrey
Senior Member
Username: dbhelphrey

Post Number: 106
Registered: 12-2018
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 01:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I'd just remove the image and forget about it. Don't feed the trolls.
Steven Bruneel, Retired Architect
Senior Member
Username: redseca2

Post Number: 708
Registered: 12-2006


Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 02:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

If you need cover art, turn it into a little competition limited to your members. The winner gets their vacation picture memorialized on your publication. For years the AIA had an annual competition where members submitted photos to go into their desk calendar.
John Bunzick
Senior Member
Username: bunzick

Post Number: 1890
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 03:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

David. I looked at your website but couldn't find the image. I did, however, find an image online similar to the one you describe - a diamond shaped yellow sign with "education" and an upward pointing arrow. If that's the image, it is copyrighted by iStockPhoto, which is owned by Getty Images. They are one of the largest stock photo companies, so it's no wonder they would be aggressively protecting their property. A license to use that image would cost $33 according to their website.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt

Post Number: 1951
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 04:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

John,
The image has been taken down from our website.

The image can be found at picpedia.org, Highway signs.

David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC
Dan Helphrey
Senior Member
Username: dbhelphrey

Post Number: 107
Registered: 12-2018
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2022 - 07:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Umm, since the web site you mentioned very clearly states who the original copyright holder is and that the image is released under a Creative Commons License, there is no reason for you not to use it - just make sure it is properly attributed. If the letter you received is claiming that anyone other than Nick Youngson owns rights to the image, then you should forward the letter to Mr Youngson informing him that someone else is trying to claim credit, and money, for his image. If the attorneys who contacted you are representing Mr Youngson or Alpha Stock Images, then just double check that you have complied with the CC license.
John Bunzick
Senior Member
Username: bunzick

Post Number: 1891
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 - 04:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Sounds more and more like a scam, no?
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt

Post Number: 1952
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 - 05:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

What is the SCIP attorney's contact information?

Does CSI National have an attorney on retainer?

Thanks,
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC
Loretta Sheridan
Senior Member
Username: leshrdn

Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 - 08:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

The CSI DCP classes are AWLAYS stressing that we NOT just grabbing an image of the internet and using it, and making sure you have the rights to use it. So CSI may not offer much support; probably more like, "We told you so."

For awhile I had my own subscription to Adobe images. That was helpful-ish, though limited.
Loretta Sheridan
Senior Member
Username: leshrdn

Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2021
Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 - 08:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Adobe Image subscription was an easy addition to Creative Cloud subscription. It doesn't get to be too expensive unless you are using /distributing a TON of image.

Shutterstock isn't too bad in terms of pricing. But I found that their stock tends to be limited. It may have imported -- that was a while ago.

Wikimedia Commons is FREE! And has a lot of stuff. It tends to be a little difficult to navigate (compared to Adobe and Shutterstock.) You do have to credit as indicated with each image.

I always hated Getty. They charge more, and they seem to be greedy. Found this info on Wikipedia about Getty:

"Claiming copyright over public domain content Getty Images has continued the practice that Corbis (whose license it acquired in 2016) has been criticized for of claiming copyright, watermarking and selling images that are in public domain, including images related to The Holocaust like the Warsaw Ghetto boy photo,[55][56] the Polish cavalry in Sochaczew photograph,[57] or images created by NASA.[58] Getty has also tried to collect fees from photographers for use of their own images that they had previously put in the public domain.[58]"

"Public-domain photos from historical photographers such as Dorothea Lange and Walker Evans have long been available for unrestricted downloading from the United States Library of Congress. The exact same images are also available from Getty Images, subject to a licensing fee of up to $5,000 for a six-month term.[59] This demonstrates an example of copyfraud."

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