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Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI
Senior Member
Username: rliebing

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 07:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

We still struggle with BIM and specifications, but how about a change of pace/direction?

From those far wiser than I, I ask; how is BIM functioning today and how will/should it function in regard to production of working drawings [as we know them today]?

Will BIM eventually be of value to change the use or look of those drawings or will it remain a much more valuable tool in the design function?

Appreciate all comments-- and sincere thanks!

[Moved from the Watercooler - Colin]
Colin Gilboy
Senior Member
Username: colin

Post Number: 193
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 05:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

From the AIA email newsletter today:

Many key design trends have been slowed by the deep economic recession. A quarter of architecture firms feel that the downturn has reduced interest in building information modeling (BIM), about one in five feel that it has reduced interest in sustainable design, and almost one in six point to less interest in integrated project delivery (IPD).

http://info.aia.org/aiarchitect/thisweek09/0626/0626n_otb.cfm
Colin Gilboy
Publisher, 4specs.com
435.654.5775 - Utah
800.369.8008
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez

Post Number: 343
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 06:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Yea but tight budgets for construction are going to push owners/construction teams there.

Contractors will adopt BIM and find free money with every conflict found.

Architects will become an appendix to the building process.

Who need's them. Hire a designer, an envelope consultant, a below grade waterproofing consultant, a roofing consultant, a code consultant, and interior designer, all the engineers, and you're done. Besides they can never make up their minds
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson

Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 06:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Have a bad day Marc?
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez

Post Number: 344
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 07:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Oh no, today is one of my better days. The doctors say if I give up spec writing that the facial twitch will become imperceptible after a few years and the nervous laugh will become more of a harmless cackle.
Here at the home for tired spec writers Iím allowed to self medicate and I lead group movement around the grounds.

My current medication is Balvenie 12 year with a tablespoon of still water.
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson

Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 07:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Sounds like you are really doing well!!!
Doug Frank FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: doug_frank_ccs

Post Number: 241
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 07:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Marc, I like the way you think; but your hands must not be very dirty if you can wash them with only a tablespoon of water.
Doug Frank FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate
FKP Architects, Inc.
Houston, TX
Alan Mays, AIA
Senior Member
Username: amays

Post Number: 49
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 02:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

To get to the owner's point of view, I recommend this article done about a seminar at the AGC's BIM forum.

http://www.bdcnetwork.com/blog/1340000734/post/660045066.html

I also suggest the following article just posted again by the same magazine:

http://www.bdcnetwork.com/blog/1340000734/post/1190046119.html

Interesting articles with interesting discussion/comments.
John Hunter
Senior Member
Username: johnhunter

Post Number: 71
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 03:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

We've been using Revit for all project phases including production for 2 years now, and are now primarily working with consultants who use Revit as well. As with any software, how well it works is a direct function of who's operating it - some teams produce good work, some not so much. We've already seen improvement in coordination among disciplines that is paying dividends.

There has been some effort involved in mediating between how our sheets have looked in the past and optimizing how Revit produces sheets. More than once, elaborate work-arounds have been developed to make the Revit output match the Autocad output, which had been developed to match how hand-drafting had been done within the firm for 30 years.

One of the fundamental challenges is that those who know the most about the software generally know the least about buildings. We've also encountered the challenges of things being "in the model" that don't get into the documents.
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey

Post Number: 219
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 03:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

John,

My compliments. Well written. I particluarly like "One of the fundamental challenges is that those who know the most about the software (insert any CAD software name here) generally know the least about buildings." You could also add "know least about fundamental drafting skills and evolutionary drawing methodologies." To much redundancy. Not working in context. Not taking advantage of defaults (say it once stuff).

Match responsibility and accountability to skill and knowledge level.

Thanks

Wayne
Mark Gilligan SE, CSI
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan

Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 03:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

We are finally seeing some good discussion regarding when and how to use BIM.

One observation that I ran across in the early 70's was that much of the benefit of computer automation was the result of the need to understand the existing system and to rationalize it before it could be computerized. If you made these changes to the system without computerizing it you would reap most of the benefits attributed to the computerization. The same applies to the use of BIM.

It is my impression that while BIM is being used on many projects that we seldom if ever see the totally integrated models touted by the proponents. This is supported by the reports that the software cannot deal with complexity of these large integrated models.

BIM has its uses. The trick is to find when and how to use it when it adds value to the Owner and the design professional.
Alan Mays, AIA
Senior Member
Username: amays

Post Number: 50
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 03:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Wayne and John:

I couldn't agree with you more. Grant Simpson FAIA, Michael Czap AIA and myself have given workshops at the National AIA Convention in 2007 and 2009 on this very issue. John, you are correct concerning the work a rounds. We do the same here. I push our BIM experts that we have on staff to come up ways to accommodate the needs. We also must adapt our own best practices to allow for the better tools. One of the things that Grant has published in some of his writings, is that the experience quotient has flipped. Architects continue not to adjust to the new tools. There is not one CEO that I know of that has ever used CAD personally themselves while that tool is now being brushed aside today the same way CAD brushed aside manual drawing practices. That could not have been said in the manual days as that technology changed from linen, to mylar to pinbar to sepias and sepia mylar. The CEO's still knew the tools and the effort required. It does not speak well of our industry that the leaders of the firms do not know or even understand the changes that these new tools are doing to the process of architecture. That said, there are ways to make the "software" do the work for you, but R&D is considered overhead.

Working in Context and other methodologies typically get "tossed" in the thinking due to "Standards" that do not necessarily apply to said individual project. The "buy it out of the box" mentality.

To sum up what I want to say is that I am finding the same issue of the experience quotient being upside down in specifications as much as the architect. BIM can and is a great integrator, but specs has been ignored from a software side as much as the practice side. Specifiers are doing things pretty much the same way since the invention of the word processor. There have been attempts to use integrated databases (which BIM really is nothing more than) by companies, but the actual practice has not. Most firms that have specs still only use word processors to edit. Are the specifiers being left out in the dust the same way? This is an interesting discussion that I find getting pushed into a category of "BIM". What we are really talking about are what you 2 gentlemen finally touched on and that is the practice of architecture. Until we all decide to "take the bull by the horns" and realize that we need to adapt again, we will continue to struggle with the changing industry. Contractors are pushing that envelope, we can too.
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey

Post Number: 220
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 03:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Grant Simpson, Michael Czap, and Alan Mays put on a STANDING ROOM ONLY SHOW. I was at the 2007 AIA convention, in the front rows. Construction documents are our BIGGEST deliverable, yet as Alan and Grant note the experience quoted has flipped and the quality has suffered across the nation.

Grant Simpson, Michael Czap, and Alan Mays have some better mousetraps. Evolutionaly, not revolutionary. Attend their workshops.

Alan, please remind Grant he promised me a signed copy of NOT YOUR GRANDFATHERS WORKING DRAWINGS in May 2007.

Thanks

Wayne
Alan Mays, AIA
Senior Member
Username: amays

Post Number: 51
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 04:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Thanks Wayne, I appreciate the good word. Our 2009 seminar was a lot better, but the economy hit the workshops hard and attendance was not as good (as with most of the workshops). I have forwarded the message to Grant. I also recommend his and Jim Atkins book that is a compilation of their AIArchitect articles. I am still waiting for my signed copy myself! LOL! The book title is "Managing Project Risk." Those 2 gentlemen are some of the smartest minds in our industry today.

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