Stage door?

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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1871 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 07:18 pm:    I am looking for a large (10' wide by 14' tall) sliding (or overhead) door for the back of the stage. This door will be used to move props and sets from the workshop to the stage. The tricky part is the door must be 1 hour rated and STC of 56. The architect wants to avoid using swing doors. Any ideas would be appreciated. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 922 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 07:40 pm:    The other tricky part is sound ratings. Often the backstage is noisy. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1872 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 07:54 pm:    George, I agree. The STC 56 is really high. We did find a sliding stage door that you would see on the backlot of Hollywood sound stage, but it was $125K! David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 602 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 08:07 pm:    This used to be the standard industrial, horizontal sliding fire rated door. I bet a NAAMM member can make this. Try contacting the organizations staff for referrals. Perhaps the solution is to use two doors. One for fire and one for noise. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP, AIA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 203 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 08:18 pm:    Hi David. Many years ago, I specified Cornell Iron Works Thermiser Insulated Rolling Service Door for exterior acoustical doors at a stage. I don’t recall if the doors had an STC rating, but the doors were recommended by the theatrical/acoustical consultant on the project. You may want to contact Cornell/Cookson. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 843 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 08:49 pm:    McKeon has a rated acoustic roll-up door. Their website says it provides STC-34 and is the "highest rating in the industry" in addition to being up to 4 hour fire rated. https://www.mckeondoor.com/product/auto-set-model-fsfd-stc/ Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 844 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2021 - 08:50 pm:    Krieger does offer a sliding acoustic door, and they specialize in special construction doors, you might give them a try: https://www.kriegerproducts.com/acoustical/models/ David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1873 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, April 23, 2021 - 01:20 pm:    Thanks Nathan. I will check out the McKeon door you indicated. The architect with check with the acoustical engineer to see if we can use the STC rating of that door. Here is a link to the previous product CDL (Clark Door Limited): https://www.cdldoors.com/soundproof-horizontal-sliding-door/ David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1843 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, April 23, 2021 - 02:10 pm:    I did a few projects with back stage doors, but the door was nowhere near that tall. I've included sound control doors on many projects, and I don't think you're going to get very close to these requirements at all. "Conventional" swinging sound control doors with acoustic seals only get up to the low STC 50s range. Going from STC 50 to 56 is actually a very large increase from a practical perspective. In any case, I don't think you will find swinging doors that large that have been tested (and would likely work very well at that size) - even if the client was okay with swinging doors. Two reasonably high performing roll-up doors, one on each side of the partition, would not get you there either, given that STC ratings cannot be added together because the rating is logarithmic. I forget the math, but two back-to-back STC 35 doors are probably not going to get you beyond something in the STC 40s range. So, my humble opinion is that this can't be done for a reasonable cost. I suspect that the acoustician has over-asked on this. I don't know the project type, but would be curious why so much noise is generated in the adjacent space that such a high STC is needed. Projects that I was involved with worked hard on the space programming to avoid that scenario. Also, what about the partition? A fully grouted single wythe 10" CMU wall would have only a somewhat higher STC rating. Also, that size opening for sets is seems big to me. Perhaps that's normal in a full professional theater, but it's four feet higher than the high-end high schools that I've worked on that had pretty impressive theater programs. Oh, and properly installing such a door to meet this rating, and keeping it that way over time, is going to be very challenging. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 696 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, April 23, 2021 - 04:11 pm:    I would also consider Michael's suggestion, two doors. A completely standard fire-rated coiling door that would be used day to day to separate the spaces, and a separate, completely standard acoustical partition that is only deployed when the STC rating is mandatory. They could each be installed to the face of wall, one on the stage side and one on the workshop side. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 88 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Friday, April 23, 2021 - 09:00 pm:    David, Have you inquired with the owner's stage/acoustical consultant about a recommendation for this? They probably know of one that costs about $125K - and the Owner may buy it. That way, it's not your problem. I think a better approach would be an operable panel partition. This should not be a door subject to frequent operation, and it's easy to get 50+ SCT out of an operable panel partition. You can probably get suitable performance out of a pair of overhead coiling doors, but it would be something of a "kluge" with twice the maintenance. If the stage/acoustical consultant is "blowing smoke" by requesting unreasonable criteria, put it back on the consultant to name the product and don't bother trying to "value engineer" it yourself. Specify the recommended product, but make sure you have it in writing. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 686 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2021 - 02:18 pm:    I would think the STC is being directed at exterior sound finding its way into and interfering with a performance - more so than for the purpose of sound leakage from backstage into surrounding corridors. In that case, good house management could control what is taking place outside of the backstage area and result in a more achievable sound rating. Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA SpecGuy Specifications Consultants www.SpecGuy.com phil@specguy.com Phil Babinec Advanced Member Username: phil_babinec Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2011 Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 11:51 am:    Similar to as discussed - at Cincinnati Shakespeare we provided a 15'-0" W by 22'-6"H a custom acoustic barn door with separate fire rateed coiling door. Opening was 12'-0" W by 21'-0" H. We had a 18-inch custom "seal". Details were developed with Acoustic Engineer. Hindsite we would have motorized it or made it 2 doors with an acoustic seal.