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Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey

Post Number: 493
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Project has 3 concrete water storage tanks in the cellar of the building.

Question 1: Does someone have experience for the preferred method of waterproofing the interior concrete surfaces of the tanks (6 surfaces)? Up for consideration is crystalline concrete waterproofing from Kryton, Xypex, Hycrete, etc. Anyone have good or bad experience with this method? Is there a manufacturer of surface applied waterproofing products for potable water storage tanks.

Question 2: Each tank will have a top hatch and a vertical access ladder which will be submerged partially or entirely in the potable water. What is the best choice for the ladder material? Stainless steel, aluminum, hot-dip galvanized?

Thanks

Wayne
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski

Post Number: 1330
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I think my first call would be to my Tnemec rep. I know they do outdoor water storage tanks (for which towns in Wisconsin are named).
David E Lorenzini
Senior Member
Username: deloren

Post Number: 126
Registered: 04-2000


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Wayne, I had a similar application for a GSA project a few years ago under MF95. The tank was used for harvesting rainwatter, and was located in a basement. The tank was concrete and work included patching of cracks.

The preferred product was International Metalizing Corporation (www.intmetl.com) IMC 20-201 100 percent solids, two-component Epoxy Tank Coating.

Comparible products were:
1. Epoxy Systems' Product (www.epoxy.com); #250 100% Solids Epoxy Coating.
2. Fox Industries Engineered Products (www.foxind.com): FX-498 Hydro-Ester Epoxy Mastic High Build Coating.

I have no idea what their experience was.
David Lorenzini, FCSI, CCS
Architectural Resources Co.
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat

Post Number: 452
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I would also try Carboline. They have a number of tank coatings.
I'd say stainless type 316 or 316L for the ladder
Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods

Post Number: 396
Registered: 08-2005


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I use Xypex a lot in architectural walls, decks, and footings, but not as a primary system. I would absolutely encourage you to spec it into the concrete mix, but for potable water tanks, you will want a primary inner liner. I have seen tanks with epoxy coatings, and also have seen sray rubberized applications such as Liquid Boot (are they still in buisiness?). However, all of these features are outside my area of expertise. I'm just posting to suggest some ideas to help.
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey

Post Number: 494
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 01:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Thanks all. I am good to go with these waterproofing recommendations.

Any thoughts on the material for the vertical ladder?
Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods

Post Number: 397
Registered: 08-2005


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 01:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Have you thought about using an industrial fiberglass ladder?
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey

Post Number: 495
Registered: 01-2008


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 01:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Nathan,

Will now. Good idea.

Thanks,

Wayne
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat

Post Number: 453
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 01:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I mentioned stainless, but fiberglass sounds like a good option too.
Gerard Sanchis
Senior Member
Username: gerard_sanchis

Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 02:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Wayne,

We’ve specified a few of those and have on the boards a large project with several large water tanks similar to yours, except that they’re on suspended slabs.

L.A. requires fire water tanks for large projects and we’ve tried cementitious with poor results; the crystalline coatings will not bridge cracks. We also tried fluid-applied urethane membranes (pure urethanes, not the modified types) and it worked well until the full body suit (that applicators have to wear when working in a tank) failed in one application and the applicator had to be pulled out of the tank fast so he could live another day.

Since that incident, we specify drop-in liners. They are attached at the top, above the water line, and are independent of the substrate so even if the latter moves, the liner remains watertight.

Straight PVC works well if the water is not contaminated. For the large project mentioned above, we’re storing grey water which may contain fats and oils (a no-no for straight PVC) so we specified an ethylene interpolymer alloy (EIA) with a minimum a minimum thickness of 40-mils.

The ladder should be stainless steel – Type 302/304 works well, and should rest on several layers of PVC (do not anchor thru the membrane if you can) and be attached at the top above the liner and half way down thru the liner (that’s the tricky part and careful detailing is needed).

I hope this helps.
Gerard Sanchis
Senior Member
Username: gerard_sanchis

Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 02:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Wayne,

I forgot to mention that, for critical areas, you may want to specify a leak detection system under the liner.
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre

Post Number: 1211
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 02:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I would probably go with either a fiberglass or type 316 SS ladder -- I've had too many weird corrosion issues with 302/304 SS that is continually submerged. Agree with the comments about crystalline waterproofing -- they won't bridge cracks and in a seismic zone, you're going to get them; and if there are other options, those options will always be better. I would call Tnemec too -- they started out waterproofing concrete ("cement" ) water tanks and they know that market better than anyone else. Call Torin.
anon (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 03:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I would steer clear of crystalline and Tnemec and Carboline for this application and instead go with a CIM system (I used CIM 2000 for a very similar condition - it is the BOMB).

Looks like CIM 2000 has been updated/replaced with a new number, so you'll have to get in touch with them to find out what they recommend.

http://www.cimindustries.com/products/cim-product
Jim Sliff
Senior Member
Username: jim_sliff

Post Number: 103
Registered: 08-2010


Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 05:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Agreed a crystalline system won't cut it. I'd go with a fluid-applied polyurea liner at roughly 100 mils. I've seen concrete tanks of many types lined with everything from epoxy to drop-in or heat-welded liners and polyurea seems to provide the best combination of strength, elongation, no seams and life cycle cost.

Yes, as with urethanes supplied-air hoods must be worn by the applicators but that's completely normal for qualified applicators (I've never seen "full body suits" required, which would be interpreted as equivalent to a hard-hat diver suit - a fully enclosed, externally-supplied "environment"). Literally ALL fluid-system tank lining work has to be done using supplied-air systems; this includes everything from basement chillers to steel water tanks. All coatings I can think of displace oxygen and use of supplied air is a day-to-day part of the industrial coating trade. If a drop-in or heat-welded liner also used any type of solvent adhesive I'd require the same air-supply and retraction equipment as I would for a fluid-applied system.

Failure of air hood systems is extremely rare, but can happen - but retraction systems must legally be in place and manned/monitored so if a failure occurs the system users are out of the danger zone in seconds with no action on their part.

It's considered less of a danger than swingstage work, where out-of-date or worn out harnesses, illegal rigging and such often go unnoticed.
Gerard Sanchis
Senior Member
Username: gerard_sanchis

Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 05:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

As usual Jim's advice and experience is appreciated.

The PVC liners, unless they exceed a certain size, can be prefabricated in one piece and pre-tested. If not, they're heat-welded once in the tank with seldom more than one seam; I don't know if the heat welding consumes much oxygen, but if it does the quantity must be small.

I actually like the seamless polyuera, but when burnt once I seldom re-visit the same material.
Gerard Sanchis
Senior Member
Username: gerard_sanchis

Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2009


Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 05:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I just noticed that Wayne mentions 6 surfaces. The sixth is the underside of the tank cover which is not in contact with water but gets a lot of condensation.

When using a liner, we specify crystalline WP for the cover. I imagine that if poyurea or other liquid-applied WP is used, it's going to be difficult to spray overhead and the applicator would have to roll the material in multiple coats to achieve the required mill thickness. The same difficulty applies to same extent to troweled-on WP.
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg

Post Number: 97
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 05:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I've used Tnemec Series 264 on similar projects with no problem. With regards to applicator safety (granted that this is means and methods and accidents do happen), that presents another reason to use a product line that requires that knowledgeable applicators be involved.

CIM coatings were very good in immersion conditions in the past but I can't find CIM 2000 on their website any more. I've never used any of their other products.

Whatever product you use, make sure it's designed for immersion service. Temperature can come into play as well; freezing conditions even moreso.

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