| Author |
Message |
Dean E. McCarty (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |    |
My, what a coincidence. I was just reading some of the MF 04 posts, and one commented on the fact that with either MF95 or MF 04, it was difficult to locate stone counters.
Not only do I need to locate this product, but I am wondering if one of you may have a sample (or complete) spec section for this I may use for a project?
If so, I will need it in the next couple of days.
I apologize for the short notice, but I just got the project. (Nothing like a two week project schedule from a new client to start things off.)
Thanks much. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: Wpegues
Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
Dean,
We do stone counters tops all the time. We cover it as simply 'stone' in the stone materials section. Drawings shown how we attach, calk, grout, etc. and the stone section talks about these materials as well, or refers to sealants when appropriate.
So, if you have a stone spec section that covers the kind of stone you intend to use (granite, etc.) then you are already done. Just make sure it is correctly detailed.
William |
Sheldon Wolfe
New member
Username: Sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
Dean:
Try Collegedale, Kewaunee, LSI, and other laboratory casework manufacturers. I don't know if they still have them, but they all used to have natural stone countertops. I believe they were limestone (?) but if they have specs it might be a good starting point.
Also, call Grazzini Brothers. They have been a good resource for projects that required different types of stone. |
Tracy Van Niel (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 07:43 am: | |
Dean:
We include stone countertops in our stone section similar to what William does. Talking with someone like Grazzini Brothers, or a local stone fabricator whose opinion you value, is a good idea because some stone types are more "absorbent" than others which will affect its ability to resist staining. |
Ron Beard CCS
New member
Username: Rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 09:36 am: | |
Dean:
Limestone is one of those 'more absorbent' stones. Granite is considered a better choice for countertops. You might also consider giving cultured stone a look. They usually have a wide range of design choices.
|
Anne Whitacre
New member
Username: Awhitacre
Post Number: 53
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 03:19 pm: | |
As an alternative suggestion, we often do project in which the stone counter top (granite, usually) is the only stone on the project, and I easily cover it as part of the casework section or the "finish carpentry " section. We specify the stone type, the finish on it (polished, typically); the thickness; edge treatment (bullnose, usually, but sometimes square cut, chamfered corners, polished) and then the casework section describes how it is supported.
Things to look out for:
as for a sealant test to make sure that the sealant doesn't "bleed" into the stone. Some solvent based sealants can provide a wet-looking stain on the stone next to them. I ask for this as an early submittal.
If there are a lot of stone countertops, your designer will probaby want to pick out the stone from the supplier. Allow enough time for this, and/or enough submittals to see the variety that will be supplied.
Make sure that it is adequately supported -- this usually means plywood and possibly some misc. metal as well.
Anne
|
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI
Junior Member
Username: John_regener
Post Number: 82
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 06:52 pm: | |
There are several ways to specify stone countertops and they each could be appropriate depending upon the project's requirements and the viewpoint of the specifier.
It's true that most of the required products for stone countertops could be specified in various sections, as described by William Pegues, and a competent contractor should be able to figure out how to locate them in the Project Manual and properly bring them together without further instruction. But I think there is further instruction needed in order to adequately specify stone countertops and a distinct section for stone countertops should be written that specifies these materials as an assembly. Like Anne Whitacre described, I too find that the only cut stone on most projects I do is for countertops and it is more clear and concise to specify all stone materials in that section.
Perhaps if there is a single stone type that is used throughout the project, then a common stone materials section could be written and referenced in various sections that describe assemblies such as exterior stone veneer, interior stone cladding, stone flooring and stone countertops. This would be consistent with MasterFormat 95 for Section 04800 - Stone Assemblies and the approach taken by Masterspec for specifying stone veneer assemblies.
I take the viewpoint that the end result is what should be specified and therefore the countertops should be specified as stone assemblies. This is the "work results" concept that is being batted around in the MasterFormat 04 discussion. Since Masterspec uses Section 04860 for stone veneer assemblies, I use Section 04865 for stone countertops.
Section 04865 specifies the countertop assembly. It references plywood underlayment specified in a Division 6 section that is mechanically attached to a steel framework specified in the miscellaneous metal fabrications section of Division 5. Cementitious backer board is specified in the stone countertop section, if it is not specified in a Division 9 section, for mechanical attachment to the plywood, to provide a suitable substrate for bonding of the stone. This section specifies cut natural stone (granite typically), if the stone is not used elsewhere. In that case, it would reference the stone material section that is common to several applications. Epoxy setting mortar and stone sealer are specified in the countertop section since they typically are unique to the countertop installation, and joint sealers are referenced to the applicable Division 7 section if, again, they are not unique to the stone countertops. Add requirements for samples, mock-up, stone fabrication and installation, and zip-zot the countertop section is complete (!).
I used a stone veneer section as the starting point for developing the countertop section since I could not find one published by Masterspec or other guide specification sources. But I'm not satisfied with my stone countertop section and I know there are fabrication requirements that need development. I watched "Hometime" and saw many cutting and finishing activities that should be better described in my spec. And Anne Whitacre pointed out joint sealer issues that I need to consider too. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: Wpegues
Post Number: 142
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 10:22 pm: | |
In looking back over the other replies here, it came to mind how the kind of work that we each do colors the kinds of answers that we give.
Most of the answers here would be fine for commercial building projects, or projects where there was a significant amount of stone. And sometimes our personal practices means that these are the dominant kinds of work we do - the dominant kinds of specs.
if one had a practice that was primarily residential (houses, townhouses, low rise apartments/condos, maybe even high rise condos/apts) there might not even be a 'stone' section in the project manual. In the high rise types of projects, my office does a lot of these, and even though we have an interiors department, the owner/developer of these types of projects tend to get a separate interiors office to do the public spaces (lobby, various specialty rooms for use by tenants/condo owners and public hallways). There might be significant stone in those areas, but for the architect side of things, its only going to be counter tops inside the units (or stone tiles, which is a different topic).
Even if the firm is an interior design firm, there might be a significant number of projects where the only dimensional stone in a project is related to counter tops - and thus very useful to have a countertop section.
Some firms might have use for both ways of dealing with the situation too. And thus a master spec system that lets you choose a countertop section for projects limited to that, and a full stone system for major projects.
Also, for small scale residential projects, especially 'stick built' projects, having a stone countertop section could be beneficial since the installation is likely to be part of the finish carpentry/millwork subs. A countertop section is more likely to be noticed by them where dealt with internally in the stonework series of sections might be regarded as simply not covered. That is, insofar as they are likely to open the project manual anyway, but we must maintain a positive outlook in that regard -grin!
William |
Laura Stevens (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 11:43 pm: | |
Found your spec. section. Includes several things for stone but, is great for stone countertops (09751). Just take out what you don't need. Good luck.
[Link deleted by Colin as violation of copyright. This is one of the problems with Intranets with leaky passwords and copyrighted materials such as the ARCOM spec.] |
Ellis Whitby, PE, RA, CSI
New member
Username: Ecwhitby
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 08:01 am: | |
The spec section posted by "Laura Stevens" on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 08:43 pm, is an Arcom/AIA MasterSpec section with the header & footer edited. I believe that it is a violation of the Arcom purchase agreement for their sections to be used by anyone who does not subscribe to their service. |
Laura Stevens (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 09:53 am: | |
Sorry I didn't know that. It was on the internet so I assumed that it was free to use. Maybe he could buy the latest Masterspec. |
Laura Stevens (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:19 am: | |
Also I didn't use this section myself without a license. |
Dean E. McCarty
New member
Username: Dean_e_mccarty
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 09:40 pm: | |
Wow. Thanks to all of you who replied to this post, and thanks to all of you who forwarded sample sections.
I ended up putting it in 04412 - Stone Countertops, and the project goes to bid on Monday. I am confident that it will work. |
|
4specs.com Home Page
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page