Anybody Use Manufacturer's CDs?

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Author Message David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 202 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:41 pm:    It seems that more and more manufacturers are including CDs in their product literature. Does anybody here actually look at those things? I don't. I would rather read the hardcopy literature or go to the website. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 31 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:47 pm:    David, I'm with you. It is rare that I find CD's helpful. I make sure and tell reps that when they offer CD's. It's hard enough to maintain a library of binders, but a library of cd's would be a nightmare. Unfortunately there are manufacturer's that are considering dumping catalogs for cd's. Margaret G. Chewning CSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 17 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:53 pm:    I don't know about anyone else, but my office space is very limited! I don't have room for a lot of catalogs or the time to keep them up todate. I do use the CD's alot, especially when they are well done with technical information that is easy to get to. Unfortunately some of the CD's I have received are "Madison Ave fluff". Those get pitched real quick or given to my son to use in his art work. There is always the web also, but the CD's are a good place to start and often will point me to a website with additional information. D. Marshall Fryer Senior Member Username: dmfryer Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:04 pm:    Worst are the CD's that must be "installed" on your computer to function, and then offer no method of cleaning up after themselves. I have endured enough of these that I no longer solicit CD's from vendors. If I can't get a binder, find them in Sweets, or find a website, I just use a competitor. CD's can, however, make attractive Christmas tree ornaments. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:18 pm:    Part of the problem is that a marketing person usually was what thought of the CD and produced it. They don't see it as a tool, but instead, they see it as a way to do a sales pitch. What manufacturers should do is give that CD to all departments and each department to suggest a way to convey their information about all their products via that CD. Then it would be an interesting CD that provided useful information. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:21 pm:    I have to agree with David, Curt & Marshall Unless you have a separate server w/ a "jukebox" attached, it's impossible to access them on a regular basis. Downloading them to individual computers is ridiculously time consuming and as Marshall said, you end up with a lot of "clutter" on your machine. Curt also makes a good point about cataloging them, I've tried, it is a nightmare! If a vendor offers a CD, I'll take it, but it usually ends up collecting dust. If they cannot provide me with a hardcopy binder or a decent website, they probably do not get specified. CD's are also difficult to navigate and in this hurry up world, I don't know too many spec writers who have the time. Anonymous   Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:22 pm:    I think that CSI would do well to come up with a standard format for electronic binders - software, organization, format, etc. This would be a great move for the organization, and highly welcomed by its members. anon William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 247 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:51 pm:    When one is offered to me, I typically decline, and I tell them the preference of our office - no CDs and what we do like and how it is used. Web Sites and catalogs top the list - CDs are at the bottom of the list and are not retained. Perhaps CSI can post this as a 'question of the week' on their web site and get a good poll response. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 03:06 pm:    I threw out a large collection of CDs last year in my annual holiday cleaning binge. On a whim, I sent an all-staff e-mail asking if anyone was interested in the jewel cases. Within moments I received several responses, and when I looked up, five people were standing at my desk. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 103 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 03:08 pm:    I wrote a first draft on this several years ago and it was published by Construction Sciences Research Foundation after CSI expressed no interest. I called it WebFormat - as an obvious name. Here is the document: http://www.4specs.com/s2a/webformat/ I suspect that CSRF would be willing to cooperate with CSI to further expand and jointly produce such a document. I also tell many manufacturers that their websites are too complex and do not help the specifier. I will be speaking at the CSI Convention in Chicago this April so tell the manufacturers to attend and listen. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 141 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 07:42 pm:    1. Producing and distributing CD's is measurable. Therefore, marketing managers like them and encourage their distribution. They can "prove" how much marketing was done. 2. Websites don't offer the same measurable results. Those that require "logging in" do so in order to measure activity ... or protect their information from being "misused" by spec writers or copied by their competition. I recall asking a product rep at a CSI Convention, who insisted on giving me one of their wiz-bang CD's, whether the information on the CD was available on the company's website. The answer was, no. They hadn't had time ($$$) to update the website. 3. CSI had a common format for product information. It was called SpecData. So much for standardization. Same thing for ManuSpec. Both are available at http://www.firstsourceonl.com/. 4. There is more than formatting and spec language used in the text. There is the electronic file format of the document. Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) files are very difficult to work with and impossible if "locked" by the manufacturer. I mean, do they want to prevent their information from being used? Put the text in an electronic format that can be extracted and used in the specifier's word processing program. 5. There is much more at issue, including writing style and exclusionary text trying to be passed off as "generic" or "non-proprietary" (really descriptive text). See "Product Masterspec" files if you are a Masterspec subscriber and manufacturer-produced specs if you are a BSD SpecLink subscriber. 5. I've been downloading and storing supporting information from manufacturers' websites recently. For that purpose, .pdf files are great and I appreciate the effort put into these by the manufacturers. Armstrong is one manufacturer who I've accessed; their website is very good for finding specific product information and even generating a spec section in Word so that the information can be extracted and copied into my word processing program. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 07:55 pm:    Clarification: Point 5 above. I meant to cite the manufacturer-specific specs produced by Masterspec and SpecLink as GOOD examples of how to write specs for manufacturers. They are much, much better than the specs I usually see manufacturers produce. Doug Frank FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 54 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 08:31 am:    I’ve said this before several times in several different locations, and I’ll gladly say it again: Give me a Hard Copy catalog! CDs are a waste of time for all of the many reasons listed above, plus here in my office, not everyone has a CD player in their computer. As the “Spec Guy” here, I can sometimes make use of a CD but why should I find it and load it when I can be on a web site in less time? Web sites? Give me a Hard Copy catalog! Yeah I know all the talk about not being current, etc., but I’m not the one in my office that needs the information. I need for my project architects and interns and designers to be able to do product research, including side by side comparisons of different products and of products by different manufacturers. Until somebody invents a software system that will allow one to have multiple web pages open in separate windows on my computer screen, it’s impossible to do side by side comparing of anything. As the “Spec Guy” here, I can get information from web sites (some at least) but it’s not me that’s doing the initial research. Without hard copy catalogs (limited to those manufacturers whose product we routinely specify) my people will do a simple web search and almost always select product from the first manufacturer listed. Sometimes that Acme product is exactly what we want but occasionally I want them to select from the Zero product line! PS: I checked spelling and grammar three times before posting this. <grin> Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 26 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 05:06 pm:    I also prefer hard copy catalogs, websites are great for searching for information, but after spending 14 hours a day looking at a computer screen, I much prefer looking at a catalog. I require all reps to send me their catalog with specs, warranties, product approvals, and installation instructions; if they have a CD I will accept it, but rarely have time to look at it or even use it. Ya think any reps are reading these threads...if so heed our warning, don't eliminate hard format catalogs, they remain an important reference source in my office and from this tread it looks like I am not alone. Space is always a problem, I for one combine catalogs and use my own binders, allowing me to split up multi-division products from the same manufacturer. But, I also have a pile of catalogs in a corner of my office that remains untouched and will eventually topple...time for some housecleaning. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 203 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 05:50 pm:    It's easier to take product literature into the restroom than a CD! ;-) Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 07:17 pm:    I've been told by some manufacturers that they see the CD as a stop-gap measure until they get their web sites fully functional and continually updated -- they realize that the CD is only as current as its issue date, but of course the production and distribution cost of a CD is considerably less than a hard copy. the use of the CD is limited by the ability of the user to access both their current CAD drawing and the CD at the same time -- something that makes using hard copy catalogs easy. And, it is nearly impossible to compare the contents of three CDs at the same time -- which of course is very easy to do in hard copy format. I think that as the use of the web sites becomes both more common, and more easily updated, we will see the CD become an artifact. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 146 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 02:16 am:    Alternative name for manufacturer's CD: coaster. Lynn Javoroski Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 03:10 pm:    I've told many a manufacturer's rep that the binders are valuable for comparison purposes, especially early in the design process. Web sites are useful if they have downloadable specs for me and drawings for my architect/designer/engineer AFTER a selection has been made. CD's are definitely last on the list; they're harder to shelve, easier to lose, not as current as a well-maintained web site, harder to use than a binder. I also make it a point to tell manufacturers when their web site is good! Praise usually works better than punishment. Jo Drummond Senior Member Username: jo_drummond Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 06:00 pm:    Sweets is evidently not listening to the discussion of product literature being more usable in paper copies. I just got my '04 Sweets, and they are down to 2 boxes instead of 3. I haven't opened them, I don't know how many volumes. Craig J Froeter New member Username: cfroeter Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 09:08 am:    Mr. Frank you can compare pages now with your browser just open it twice and size them to fit on your screen. The biggest difficulty is if your screen is not big enough. I must say the discussions on these pages have great value. Any manufacture or rep that is not lurking in the background reading these discussions is missing a real gold mine. We agree about the CD's we are not going the CD route except for large drawing and data files for firms that are out away from fast internet connections. We also plan to continue with catalogs until something better comes along. We feel the time it takes to compile the information, burn the CD's, get them to the rep, have the rep deliver them, have you find them when you need the information, we have already updated the web site twice with even newer information and saved money for both of us. Now I realize the same hold true for catalogs but everyone likes catalogs. We also plan as our web site becomes more complex of adding a site map or index to the catalog for the website so you can go directly to the page you need online. We will keep our eye to the screen and try to do our part to make your jobs easier and more efficient. We wish you all a very safe and happy holiday Froet Industries LLC Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 43 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 04:03 pm:    Electronic media has never been all that useful, as I've been telling reps since they began offering floppies. As noted in earlier comments, it's hard to store, you can't see what's on a disk as you can with a 3-ring binder, manufacturers frequently required installation of a viewer, and in most cases, I don't want to load up my hard drive with a lot of files that will be used only infrequently, and are already out of date. Now that we have the Internet as a widely accessible virtual drive, there is little need for floppies, CDs, or DVDs. But we still need hardcopy, and will continue to need it for the foreseeable future. Each medium has unique advantages, and the combination of Internet and hardcopy has vastly improved the processes of product evaluation and writing specifications. The Internet offers fast (never say instantaneous) access to text, pictures, animated demonstrations, on-line chat with technical support, and more. But, even though you can open multiple windows on a computer, comparing documents on the monitor is less than satisfactory, especially if you want to look at more than two things. It's also impossible to easily flip back and forth between pages in a single book as you can do with hardcopy; I haven't yet figured out how to stick my fingers between virtual pages. Of course, if the manufacturers would either have good guide specs, or put the information we need in one location... Reid Pierre Condit Senior Member Username: pierre Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 10:17 pm:    Where I work, Sweet's in hardcopy is more used than Sweet's on CD, which is frankly used not at all. When I attempted about six months back to have Sweet's on CD made available through the office network, I was embarrassed to be asked what the point of that would be since the same information can be accessed through Sweet's website. I had assumed that anything freely available on the web would not be published in hardcopy or on CD to be sold, so I had never tried to access Sweet's website. By the way, this year Sweet's seems to have decided not to supply this year's edition at no charge to this office. I was called several times and offered a set at the special price of $199, but the firm's ceo demurred. I look forward with curiosity to seeing whether access to Sweet's remains free on the web. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 08:46 am:    We have been paying for Sweets for years, typically a couple hundred bucks, so it's interesting to me that some got it free. Perhaps it's based on size of firm (we're not that big). This year, we said "no thanks", but they sent it anyway. Should have tried that last year.