| Author |
Message |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: David_axt
Post Number: 157
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 08:01 pm: |    |
We seem to always have a problem with getting colors. patterns and finishes in the specifications.
How do you do it?
Some firms have a separate 09999 - Finishes section with all finishes listed. The individual sections say, "Color: Refer to Section 09999."
Some firms have the interior designer/architect put the finishes in the specs.
Some firms say, "Colors: As selected by Architect" and then select colors at CA phase.
Our firm is has a spreadsheet that the interiors person fills out and then I put the info into the specs.
I have done all the approaches and find none of them very satisfactory.
Any ideas?
David |
David E Lorenzini
Intermediate Member
Username: Deloren
Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 09:39 pm: | |
David, Another option that I like is for the Architect to put the colors on the drawings. That way the specifier doesn't have to get involved with any possible changes. On large projects with interior design consultants, they will provide a detailed finish schedule that has a place for color.
One problem with putting colors in a Division 09 section is that invariably it includes finishes for items that are not in Division 09, such as precast pavers (Div.02), brickwork and mortar (Div. 04), countertops (Div. 06), colored sealants (Div. 07), glass (Div. 08), and toilet partitions (Div. 10). So how can a location in Division 09 be justified?
When I am required to put finishes in a schedule in the project manual, I create a "document" (since it is not in 3-part format) and locate it in Document 00999 at the end of the "Contracting Requirements". That way it only looks like it is Division 09. Another option is to put it in an Appendix at the end of the project manual, but that location, after the MPE sections, can be hard to find, especially if the project is large enough to require two volumes.
The drawings are the way to go. |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: John_regener
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 11:02 am: | |
I agree with putting the color and finish information in the set of Drawings, either as a legend to the Finish Schedule or a legend to Finish Floor Plans.
However, I see two problems continually.
First, the "color and finish" only addresses the surface, such as "eggshell paint, SuperPaint color 6758 - Toasty Cream." The finish of the substrate is missing. For example, "Eggshell paint applied over gypsum board with GA-214 Level 5 finish" would be a complete description of the work. Or, "Vinyl composition tile applied to portland cement concrete floor slab with smooth trowel finish; FF35-FL25 SOV / FF24-FL16 MLV." Various qualities of substrate preparation are significant cost items to identify Each of these involve a finish assembly, with products in two spec sections. There MUST be a Finish Schedule somewhere other than in Divisions 2 through 16 and I think it should be in the Drawings.
Second, finishes are often subject to last minute selection and changes. And, they are made by the project designer and not the specifier. So, using a Finish Schedule in the Drawings accommodates these changes and keeps the documentation under the control of the decision-maker.
Having said that, there are still colors and pattern decisions that end up in the specifications. I think of operable partitions and recall that finishes are almost always in the specifications and not on the Drawings. So, there needs to be some more thinking and developing of the concept of Finish Schedule ... at least for me.
Finally, the focus cannot be only on interior finishes. There also needs to be an exterior finish schedule to identify the many colors and patterns on exterior materials, especially paint. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: Wpegues
Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:05 am: | |
David, David and John,
I see a basic situation here that really the best solution might come down to whether you are an independent consultant or whether you are in-house specifier. I am the later.
In the former, you need to deliver your product, and not have a situation where people are constantly returning for changes to something in the spec. Moving colors out of the project manual to the drawings is a natural solution. But I don’t think that has to be done, and I don’t think that it necessarily is the easiest or best way to do it. It works though.
There is something else here that I think is getting tangled up in the discussion that does not need to be. The substrate preparation issues that John brings up. Those are correctly specified in the specific section. You know for drywall whether you have painted surfaces, paper covered surfaces or whether it is serving as a backup for wood paneling or some other finish. The same with concrete slab finishes, they are best in the concrete series. And there is a true finish schedule (not colors, just generic finish information) on the drwaings.
This discussion is acctually a return to a topic that was discussed here almost 2 years ago I think, maybe longer. A number of people then commented that they used a division 1 section to cover color selection.
And I think that could work equally well for consultant specifiers as it has for me for the past 20 years (and 2 months) that I have been doing it. Why? Because where you might deliver all of your product as pdf files or as paper for the architect to print, deliver the final version of the color schedule section as a unlocked word processing file. This lets them modify it as the project progresses.
This lets you for color go through the entire project manual referencing a single section. If the architect does not know the color selection at the time, then its carried in the color schedule with ‘as selected by the Architect’.
I use 01620, Product Options, as essentially a color schedule.
I have 3 formats for this, depending on the preference of the project manager, they all work.
One is a format where it tours the outside of the building listing all exposed to view items and their colors. Then it goes inside the building and tours the building space by space. This seems to be favored by architects and owners for commercial office buildings and high rise residential where there are not a lot of individual spaces, or where many of them are identical back of house type spaces.
The second format is preferred by interior designers for small to medium (we have an interiors department) and that lists surfaces (walls, floors, bases, ceilings, doors, frames, etc.)
The third format is a listing of materials followed by the color and this is favored for large complex projects like hotels, corporate headquarters, any project large or small where there are a lot of different materials and many rooms are all different from each other.
>>>
I actually use this section as a final check to see if the project manager has originally told me all his materials. What I do is actually give this section to them to edit, telling them they can use it as a tool sending it back and forth with the Owner with DRAFT rather than a date for the document. Then I have them send it to me 4 days before the project goes out the door. In going through it I look for things that they have added that they forgot to tell me about, or things that are missing that they have deleted. I check back to make sure if the are really in or out and update my side of things.
This has worked very well, owners that are seeing it for the first time really like it, contractors have never complained, and I have made some converts where we work joint venture with some different architects and they say they find it easy to work with.
William |
Richard Hird (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 07:50 am: | |
Since I also provide cost estimating, I know that colors do not effect price on most interior items, unless of course you change one you specified which leads to a typical bogus change order. As a specifier I concentrate on the ones that do have different prices. Those get handled in the specification.
One of favorite stories was the interior designer that spent a month on the color board. On multiple occasions they took it to the client on the other side of the country, and once it was approved "left it there". Three months later when we needed it, it had diappeared. As usual we let the Contractor cooridnate it. No one ever seemed to notice. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: Bunzick
Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 08:34 am: | |
As Richard no doubt is aware, some colors do affect price if they are in a more expensive price group, like tile. Patterns of tile or multiple paint colors in one space also cost more, so those need to be shown on drawings. My biggest problems have been in exterior finishes, where the design team did not pay enough attention to the nuances of color choices on pre-finished products. As an example, planning to use a manufacturer's special color on a metal panel without realizing that there was a minimum quantity that the project did not have. Places I have worked have used all sorts of systems for color, none of which have seemed notably successful, though they all worked. |
Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Advanced Member
Username: Specman
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:43 pm: | |
What I recently did on a rather large project, where the finishes were constantly being changed by the designers, was to have the interiors person create a finish schedule in a spreadsheet. In a legend, each type of finish material was given a keycode (eg. CT1 for 4x4 ceramic tile, CT2 for 2x2 mosaic tile, etc.). The material legend also listed the specification section where the material was specified. In that section, I would specify the specific material requirements, except for color, since the same material would be used with different colors. For each material specified, I used the material keycode in the article or paragraph title for easy searching.
Along side the material legend is a color legend, with each color having a code number(eg. 1 - Red).
In the finish schedule, the material keycode and the color code were combined for a particular finish (eg. CT1-1).
The finsih schedule spreadsheet and legends were added as an appendix to the Project Manual since it was easier and quicker to update a spreadsheet than a CAD drawing.
The project is a CMAR, and I have yet to see how this will work during construction. But during the design process, it proved quite useful. |
Engineer v. Designer (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 09:20 am: | |
If you trust your designers to get it right, in a timely manner, and to leave it right, put everything in the specs. If the opposites are true write a Section called “Finishes”; minimal content as follows:
Part 1 Submittals for verification only. Add a few flame and smoke spread references if the designer ever mentions Pier One Imports.
Part 2 Refer to a finish schedule; and make sure to add “will be issued by addendum, if it can not be found”.
Part 3 Install per product manufacturer’s recommendations and add “to the satisfaction of the Designer”. To be extra safe do not mention who the “Designer” is anywhere in the specifications.
No idea what the section number should be so you will have to ask Dennis Hall. Do not assume it is in Division 9; all kinds of stuff, (plam, hardware, glass, loose furnishings, throw pillows) shows up in finish schedules.
Keep in mind this is very expensive stuff, that often is redone shortly after the place is occupied. If you do not handle it like a lawyer, you could pay for some of it. |
J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 12:05 pm: | |
Some firms I have worked for included "color" drawings (which included more than just finish designations) that indicated exactly where colors were supposed to go. This works best where colors and textures are key factors in the design intent and where their application is complex. Since finishes and colors are more "where" and "how much" types of issues than material and work quality issues, I would prefer to see this information on the Drawings. The specification can call out that color is as scheduled or as indicated. A Finish Schedule that attempts to address color as well as material works well on very simple projects, but you really need both a Finish Schedule and a Color Schedule or Color Drawings to do more complex work.
"Color Boards" or "Finish Boards" may be done for the exterior and for the interior of a building. They are usually necessary design tools and design approval tools. Too often they get lost (and not always by the Owner). This is especially true for boards with information about exterior finishes which tend to be selected earlier in the project (sometimes during the initial phases of Schematic Design). A minimum of two boards need to be developed: one for the Owner's approval and one for record (and it needs to be forwarded to the CA people). I have been pushing for the color board to be digitally photographed and then annotated with specific product selection information. This won't really serve for color matching, but it does tend to hang around the system longer.
It should be noted that there is a difference between public and private work in this area. For public work (that is publicly bid), your finish selections should be included in the Bidding Documents and should be as clear and comprehensive as you can make them. This is especially true for projects with complex arrangement of finishes. For private work with an invited list of bidders, each of whom has constructed 5 or 6 of your projects over the last several years, you may be able to get away with "Finishes selected by Architect and installed to satisfaction of Architect." These guys will know what you want and price it accordingly (they get an extra trip to Hawaii if you go minimalist on a particular project). |
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