Panic fire exit devices

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Author Message Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 41 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 04:56 pm:    I read recently that some authority was requiring that the word "fire" be added to the familiar terms "panic exit devices" or "exit devices". MasterFormat 2004 mentions "exit devices", and adds "panic devices" in the Keyword Index. I sent a message to BHMA by way of its website almost a week ago, asking if this term "panic fire exit devices" is now preferred, but have received no answer. Does anyone have a clue? Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 79 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 05:05 pm:    It had been my understanding that Panic Device was slang for Exit Device, and that Fire was added (Fire Exit Device)for units installed in rated doors. Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 05:06 pm:    Panic/exit devices are typically considered nonrated for use on nonrated door assemblies. If the door is required to have a fire-resistance rating, then a fire panic/exit device specifically tested and approved for such use is required. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 346 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 05:06 pm:    I don't. But not every exit is in a fire-rated opening, (probably many are not) so the exit device may not need to be fire-rated. Von Duprin, for example, can provide the same model as "UL listed panic hardware" or "UL listed fire exit hardware." Requiring them fire rated could increase cost unecessarily if pricing is dependent on the type of listing. Tom, is the "authority" you cite in the fire services, as opposed to building department? (Sounds like it to me.) Even though an egress may be used in the case of a fire, it may not need to be fire rated. Maybe this authority doesn't understand the difference. Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 42 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 05:29 pm:    Three good and useful answers. Yes, not all exits are "fire exits". I wish I could recall where I read it - obviously in a hurry. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 113 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 05:40 pm:    Pricing is definitely dependent on whether the exit devices are fire-rated; fire-rated units are a good deal more expensive. You have to be specific when scheduling them for hardware sets, to include the "-F" suffix (for Von Duprin) or similar designations for other manufacturers. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 431 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 06:06 pm:    There are two types of exit devices: Panic and Fire. Panic exit devices are used in rooms with occupant loads over 50 (100 in some instances in the new IBC) and at exit paths (such as front doors). These devices can be "dogged" down with either an allen wrench or key cylinder. Dogging a device down retracts the latch and puts the device in push/pull mode. This is commonly used at high use entrances where constant opening/closing would wear out the device. Fire exit devices are essentially panic exit devices but without the dogging feature. Fire rated doors must close automatically (via a door closer) and must latch. Therefore eixt devices that can be dogged down can not be used. You can use a fire exit device in place of a panic device, but you can not use a panic device in place of a fire exit device. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:55 pm:    Depending on how you write your hardware schedule, you don't need (and really should not) be trying to include for each item of hardware (including exit devices) whether they are panic or fire, or whether they are for a rated/labeled door or not. If you have set yourself up to do that, then you are going to be including that for each item as for virtually every item scheduled for a door there is a 'labeled' and 'non-labeled' version of the item. The version that is labeled is always going to cost more. You can, and should, include a requirement (preferably in Part 1 so that it applies to all items rather than in each item individually in Part 2) that specifies that all labeled openings require labeled hardware items and another that states where in the schedule you simply state that it is 'Exit Device' that defines where the device is required to be a panic type device and where it is required to be a labeled device. I am not going to have myself, or my project architect's trying to determine the correctness of all the different suffixes and prefixes, either up front or during the review of submittals. I also don't want the project architect's to be trying to second guess me when during the construction of a project a new door or revised door comes along and they go looking for hardware set that looks 'similar' enough to them. This happens more than it should. I think trying to schedule all the specific items as to suffixes and prefixes in the hardware set schedule only has the potential to open one up to extras from the contractor. Its too easy to miss, and too easy for revisions to doors during construction to screw you up. William Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 43 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 03:02 pm:    These distinctions you are filling me in on point out the need for a truly pointed thesaurus of construction terms. Note that MasterFormat did the right thing: only the most general term "exit device" (no more) is mentioned in its informal listing in the righthand-column comments to 08 71 00. A really useful thesaurus would go on to make some of the basic distinctions we and the drafting crew must deal with daily. Like distinctions between: "acoustical panel" and "acoustical tile" "dampproofing" and "waterproofing" "coating" and "paint" There must be hundreds of these; and briefly anatomizing the differences is helpful. For some subjects, a table or diagram would help. Or a picture – we live in an age where this is easily done, as any collegiate dictionary demonstrates. A useful thesaurus will get across negative points, such as “asphalt is not pitch” and “ESP is a cop-out description for an aluminum coating”. Back to Pegues’ comment: I vacillate between saying what I want down to the last suffix, or specifying “Series such-and-such” and leaving it to the contractor to provide following Code. The need for an exit device with electric controls, and even further provisions for hooking up to a monitor, can get lost in a “Series” requirement. (Then there's that wired hinge!) Bill is helpful when he points out the value of a few general, overriding statements early on in the specification or schedule. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 347 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 03:15 pm:    My schedules are all by descriptions, keying back to Part 2. I don't use product numbers at all if I can help it, for the very reasons William describes. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 370 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 04:28 pm:    Tom, Don't presume too much, there are things you have to state - but there are things that you can give a general desicription. For instance, here is an schedule set for an electric exit device in a long corridor that I might use. 1-1/2 pr. Butts, stainless steel regular weight, ball bearing, button tip (1 electric through wire) 1 Electric exit device, Mortise Type, Fail Safe, outside keyed trim 1 Overhead surface closer, heavy duty, parallel arm 1 Floor bumper 1 set Door silencers I have no manufactuer's listed, every word I use in the schedule is a 'key word' that is identical to the item name in the Part 2 of the spec. Left off of the above is the finish, this display here does not deal with columns/tabs so I have made it so that it would be at least readable. So, you see that I reference the electrification of the hinge (this one just uses the throughwire system, there are other boots and items which can transfer power from the frame to the door). In the high part 2, I list several hinge manufacturer's and specific model numbers for every hinge I have, again all the words here are key words, so you will find an exact manufacturer/model number for Butt hinge, stainless steel, regular weight, ball bearing, button tip. Nothing is undefined. The exit device here is electrified, there are many types, but my Part 2 items give the manufacturer and model number, for the specific application. Same for the closer, look for the exact key word of "overhead surface closer", under that there is heavy duty, and under that is parallel type arms, and more than one manufacturer and specific model number. I just prefer to pin it down in part 2 where I am describing the item. Why do I have to do it all over again in the schedule itself. I use easy to understand key words (often taken from the industries own terminology and used as they define them as well). What this does is permit the project architect who has little or no knowledge of what a suffix number is. He knows he needs an electric exit device. He goes to part 2, finds the exit devices, and narrows down through the other key words to see the product. It may be slightly harder for some items than others, but I get fewer questions this way, and they gain greater overall understanding. My goal is to make a hardware schedule that is readable to almost anyone, even untrained, and have a reasonable chance of understanding it. But why do I need to tell them that this is a rated/labeled item, the door schedule itself gives the label requirements. Why repeat that here rather than state it in Part 1. The same as to whether this is a panic or simple exit device requirement. That one, I default to requirements of the local jurisdiction, I don't specify if it is panic or exit. I do the same for handing, I am not going to hand the hardware set schedule. I specifically specify that handing is the responsibility of the contractor. William Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 44 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 08:42 pm:    William's example of a Hardware Schedule set is similar to what those of us who have to specify hurricane-resistant door hardware in a hurricane-resistant doors or entrances section have to do. (That is what I was engaged in when I asked the initial question.) The hardware to be provided must be almost exactly as was tested to obtain Notice of Approval for the particular HR assembly. The Door Hardware article then must be very specific, while the Hardware Schedule article would look much like William's example, except even more terse. For a Door Hardware section most anywhere else in the US, Pegues'"just enough said" Hardware Items article and Hardware Schedule article avoid problems - if one can write them as much as possible in performance mode - but not forgetting any critical property.