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Author Message Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 141 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 01:37 pm:    In just the past week 3 advertisers have asked me to provide the identity of the person we sent to their website. Apparently caddetails.com, aecdaily.com and other directories are telling the manufacturer that they will email them information about visitors sent to their website (name, company, email address, phone, etc.) so the manufacturer can further contact the visitor. This is done through the registration process and a cookie that contains the identity. My personal philosophy is to not provide any website with usable identification for me, unless it is to enter the New York Times or Wall Street Journal subscription areas. I have said to the manufacturers that the typical 4specs user will call if they need more information and otherwise does not want or need any additional contact. What are your thoughts about receiving an email or mail from a website you visited through a directory? I know that a caddetails.com advertiser sent me an email after I visited their website. I will pass your thoughts on in my newsletters and at the Product Rep Academy in October. Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 01:57 pm:    Unfortunately everyone has to get paid, and those folks get paid only through verifiable contacts. Somebody has to 'take the high road' and demonstrate a better way to run the construction marketing machine other than inundate decision-makers with junk. I don't think educating reps is useful and here's why - reps are often ineffective (not necessarily the reps fault) at communicating with the manufacturers that pump out this stuff and 'need' your contact information. Reps generally don't make the marketing decisions. Ralph Liebing Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:02 pm:    I agree with your direction on this, Mr. Gilboy, and thanks for taking this up with the inquiries. All I ask is that the product folks show us their full and correct name [Division, etc.] address, phone number, fax,number, e-mail and web site addresses, up-front and obviously for our easy use. [This also goes for all their literautre and web site pages] I hate to have to search out who to call, who I'm dealing with and what to call them [in spec references, etc.] Quick example, is Sonneborn, Div. of Chemrex, Part of the degussa group [WOW!] Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 142 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:20 pm:    I think I need to restate this question: 1. You use 4specs to visit a website - say to National Gypsum 2. I send the National Gypsum marketing people a list of all the visitors I sent to their website - including your name, company, phone and email address. 3. National Gypsum then has a rep call on you, mails you information or sends you an email. Is this OK? Would you be unhappy when you realized the source of the contact? Would you use the website directory again? Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:33 pm:    I use the directory to do research. And sometimes that means visiting alot of sites in one day. I would not like to have my email or mail inboxes inundated with product literature from each site I visit. I'd prefer to contact the manufacturer, or their rep, directly if I need any further information. As a side note, if manufacturers would follow your lead on website format, there would be very little need for manufacturers to follow up, since all the information a specifer would need was made available on the website. Drop the fancy Flash videos (or keep them for the designers if you wish), and provide a no-nonsense data area for specifiers. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 299 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:34 pm:    Colin, No, I would not be inclined to use the directory that did that. Some things I look up as a follow up to a visit, not the other way around. Most of the times its to be reminded of the web address I forgot, I am familiar with the product, may have a good rep locally, just doing some research or personal education. When I want something I can't find, I then contact my local rep directly, and if none or don't know them, contact the company directly. William Lynn Javoroski Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 135 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:34 pm:    Since I am using their information in a spec, and they (may or may not) provide the material for a project because I did that, we've already had a fair exchange - tit for tat, if you will. However, they probably want to know who's coming from where, to determine if their advertising/marketing bucks are being spent wisely. Most of the reps I work with would be prudent about the use of the information and would not pester me. They might call or email to make sure I got the information I needed. I think I can handle that (although some days, if that phone rings one more time, it's history!). So, I say it's OK, I would not be unhappy and I would use 4specs directory again. After all, we should be working together anyway, those reps and me. Lynn Javoroski Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 136 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:35 pm:    Oh yeah, thanks for asking first. I'm sure we all appreciate the consideration. Randall L. Cox Intermediate Member Username: randy_cox Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:46 pm:    Like Ron (and others), I use 4specs (and other sites) as a virtual product library. I often visit dozens of sites to find three or four products that I want to include in my specification and have our team use for detailing purposes. If I heard from only the three of four that I intend to use, that would be fine. I really don't want to hear from all any the companies whose products I've already decided not to use. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 253 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 02:50 pm:    Colin, Decidedly not, in my case. I visit many, many web sites in the course of a week, and the degree to which I want to hear from the manufacturer varies tremendously. For example, I may just be poking around to see what's out that's there new that may be of interest to my firm's practice. Or, I may be trying to find a particular type of company and click on every single listing under a particular CSI number just to see who they are. I definitely don't want to hear from them. On the other hand, when I do find a manufacturer who's product is of interest to me, I will call them up based upon their web site information. (To date, I have not mentioned to them that I'm a 4specs user, but I suppose I could do that.) Colin, you will not be surprised to learn how many manufacturers actually do NOT want you to call! A few simply do not have phone numbers available on their site, instead wanting you to rely on e-mail or a web-form to contact them. This is completely shocking to me--an advertiser (that's what a web site is) who discourages you from calling! What the h-- are they thinking?! Plus, I'm sure we've all had some experience with unreliable e-mail. The "black-hole" of electronic commerce. (Besides, with the volume of truly damaging or illicit spam these days, a manufacturer is fortunate if I don't relegate their e-mail to the spam can. Messages should be well-identified with subject, and a "from" field that gives some indication of where it's from to avoid that fate.) Permit me to diverge here to relate an exemplary story of response to an e-mail: I filled out a form on the Sarnafil web site looking for information. I got a telephone call in a half hour from a customer service rep. He contacted my architectural rep who called me within ten minutes. As luck would have it, he was in the area and dropped by with a binder that afternoon. Within a couple of hours I had what I needed. Now that's service!! Thanks, Sarnafil! But back to the topic at hand. So, while I don't mind sharing my name with manufacturers that I have a serious interest in, I want anonimity with most of them. Quite frankly, if 4specs were to start this practice, my use of the site would be severely curtailed, and I may drop it's use entirely. Decidedly NOT what I'd like to do. If the technology were available on 4specs so that I could say: have this company contact me, I would probably use that occasionally. Generally, I resent having to "register" at manufacturer's web sites when I'm merely in the window-shopping mode. If I want to download details or specs, that's fine, I'll tell them who I am. Manufacturers would do well to refocus their efforts on doing well by the people who do actually call them, rather than collecting names in a big database and serving all of them poorly. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:07 pm:    I generally agree. I don't necessarily want to be contacted by manufacturer who's web site I visit. If I want additional information, I will call, provided that they have included a phone numer on their web site. Web sites that give complete contact info, including locations and contact info for local reps are more likely to receive a phone call from me. At that time if they ask how I found them, I could tell them "through 4specs". I sure don't need more spam on my computer! Tracy Van Niel Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 88 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:09 pm:    Is this OK? No. Would you be unhappy when you realized the source of the contact? Yes. Would you use the website directory again? No. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 143 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:14 pm:    I am not proposing to collect names; I am looking for a good response to handle the manufacturer asking for the name. William D. Singhaus New member Username: singhaus Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:53 pm:    Colin, I would simply allow them to review the comments you received on this topic. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:30 pm:    Colin, I agree again. It's the message you were trying to send last Tuesday a the OCC CSI Meeting about what manufacturer's need to do to get specified. Bugging you for contact names & bugging us with unsolicited/unwanted info is the fastest way not to get specified. If they somehow happen to get a hold of our client's contact info (not through you, but say from some sort of registration request - I have had some sites not let you register without putting something in)and contact the client directly without our permission they have just excluded themselves from ever getting specifed by me again ever! Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:03 pm:    I agree with most here, expecially Mr. Geren. If there were an option that I could turn on and off fine but...Please not without my knowing it. Julie Brown Member Username: jkbrown Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:37 pm:    Colin, Is this OK? NO Would you be unhappy when you realized the source of the contact? YES Would you use the website directory again? NOT AS FREQUENTLY I use 4SPECS to save time. You provide links to many manufacturers, which can not be found easily elsewhere in one spot. The manufactaurer's sites I use for many different reasons from needing to find a local reps contact information, for phone numbers to be included in the specification (when the project manager forgot to send me that information and it is a public bid job needing 3 named manufacturers with #s), to double check the project managers when I doubt the product they provided will work, to check on a company that was faxed to me and I doubt the company exists anymore, for research of many different manufacturers, etc. The website does not replace a human being (the representative), nor does it need to be used as a sales tool to replace the human being, or for that matter to send me more than what I need. I will call them when in need more!!! Like others - when I have to register on a manufacturer's site, I go elsewhere....Takes too much time! Thank you very much Colin, for asking first. I appreciate that. David R Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:52 pm:    Colin, Thanks for considering the comments of the users before committing one way or the other. As for having a manufacturer contact me unsolicited, frankly, would be unnecessary. In the process of doing research, one of two things usually happens: Either I find exactly what I'm looking for (most manufacturers' web site are that good), and go about my merry way developing my spec with the newly acquired information; or I don't find what I'm looking for, in which case I contact the manufacturer directly. Nearly every web site I've visited has a "Contact Us" link somewhere on the page. (Any given user always has the opportunity to request a follow-up call or visit from the manufacturer, so the manufacturer is never deprived of a sales opportunity from those who wish to be contacted.) Ultimately, I end up getting the information I need. I need nothing further, including a sales pitch to buy / specify more of their products. Let's face it, if manufacturers gained access to information on everyone who accessed their site, the probability is pretty high that they would use it for sales and marketing purposes. It's sort of like like shopping - how many of us go into a shopping mall with absolutely no earthly idea of what it is we want, and enlist the aid of a sales person to help us make up our mind? Chances are, we don't even set foot in a retail establishment until we DO know what we want. 4-Specs is like a 12,00 store shopping mall. I know what I want when I walk in, it's just a matter of finding the store that carries it. Once found, the need for that store is greatly diminished, until I need another item of merchandise. And since specifying is more "need-driven" rather than "impulse-buying", receiving sales fliers, promotions, etc. from manufacturers (with their hopes of selling more product) are somewhat futile. So, to answer your questions . . . Is this OK? No Would you be unhappy when you realized the source of the contact? A bit miffed perhaps, but certainly not postal. Would you use the website directory again? Probably, but only because it is such a valuable tool, and the Sweets Catalogs are way over at the other end of the office (really). But keep in mind that which makes this such a great website - free, unlimited, and UNENCUMBERED access to 12,000 manufacturers' web sites, providing specifiers with the ability to do their necessary technical research without the worry of being subsequently inundated with spam from every site they visited. Keep up the good work . . . Russell W. Wood, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: woodr5678 Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 08:59 am:    1. Is this OK? No. 2. Would you be unhappy when you realized the source of the contact? Yes. 3. Would you use the website directory again? Sparingly. Anonymity has it's place, I deal with enough unsolicited contacts! Doug Frank FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 80 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:35 am:    Colin, I find myself in agreement with nearly everyone on this issue, including being appreciative of your concern for our opinions. I get enough unsolicited e-mails every day about printer cartridges and viagra just to name a couple. I sure don’t want my in box even more crowded with stuff I don't need. I also agree strongly with Julie and others about not using web sites that require me to “register” before I can even find out if they have what I’m looking for. Tracy Van Niel Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 89 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:28 pm:    Well, we could all create yahoo e-mail addresses (like nospam@yahoo.com or maybe something with even more colorful language) and then use those addresses to register at the websites that require registration ... but, wait, I don't use those websites either! I suspect I would also use that e-mail address to create a new account on this website if the advertisers get their way. Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS Senior Member Username: rick_howard Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:47 pm:    I would not want to start getting replies from every site I visit. Let me decide on who to invite to my inbox. I should think that caddetails.com, aecdaily.com and other sites that start passing on visitor information will soon find that we will either not visit their sites or will start spoofing our IDs to remain anonymous. For those sites where registration is required, I just put a single character in each box to satisfy the requirements not to leave anything blank. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 256 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:20 pm:    Tracy, I already do that on an occasional basis. I use names that are obviously not real. For example, my name: "declined"; my email: "none@none.com". It also occurs to me after reading these posts that if a manufacturer collected the names of everyone who just "stopped by" their web site, they would have a whole database filled with junk. The vast majority of those people would not be interested in their product. Since they could not discern the truly interested specifiers or designers, the best use they could make of such a list is mass mailings--borderline spam. Is that what a manufacturer really wants? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 336 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 05:01 pm:    I typically remove a manufacturer from our specs if they end up spamming me. Linda Brown New member Username: lbplexus Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:16 pm:    Thank you, Colin, for asking us and for watching out for us. I agree with all the responses posted. I don't want my information given out to manufacturers simply because I visited their site. There are enough interruptions in my day that I don't need unsolicited phone calls from the manufacturers. If their technical reps were doing their jobs, or if they had technical reps, or if they exhibited at CSI convention they would already have the information and we would have a contact we knew and trusted. I spend more time than I want clearing and blocking spam emails. I don't need to add manufacturers sites I visit to that effort. When I visit a site that requires registration before it lets me view the products, I either leave the website and find another manufacturer or I give a sham name. Either way, I don't specify the manufacturer that makes me register so they can expand their marketing database. Incidently, when I log off, I programmed my computer to automatically delete any cookies placed on it. Thank you again. Mitch Miller,AIA ,CSI,CCS Senior Member Username: m2architek Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 08:22 am:    I must agree with the majority here. I don't want reps contacting me just because I viewed their website. 1. I may not have found what I needed from that firm. 2. I may have found what I needed at that site. 3. If I need more information, GOOD contact information should be provided on the website. 4. If I get any more "unsolicited" emails, I will spend too much time just deleting "spam" and may miss something of much more importance. 5. If firms want to know who I am, schedule a visit to my office, there is nothing like being able to discuss relevant information with a human being. I would be VERY reluctant to utilize a website that allows others to inundate me with unwanted contacts. Helaine K. Robinson CCS Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:45 am:    I hate Web Forms. I will use an email address or link to one whenever possible because my contact info is in my signature. I hate taking the time to fill out the Web Forms and many of them will not work due to our IT security. Steven T. Lawrey, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA New member Username: lawrey Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 01:53 pm:    Absolutely no. I do not want my contact information passed on to manufacturers. Thanks, Colin for your inqiry, and for the best AEC website! Vivian Volz Junior Member Username: vivianvolz Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 03:10 pm:    It would not be okay for you to give my email address to manufacturers; I want to choose for myself whether manufacturers get my contact info. I get about 100 junk emails a day to my professional email address, which has been the same for over ten years. I don't need more email; I don't need a phone call just because I visited a web site. I second Mitch Miller's reasons. Your site is so good, I would probably not give it up; but I would be angry that I had lost control of my own information. Thanks for asking! Anonymous   Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:44 pm:    Colin, Perhaps there is someway in which a specifier can view a site and leave only an automatically generated foot print, for lack of a better term. This information would be very general such as a description of the type of business and the geographic region/state/city, no specific information. The advertiser will at least know who is looking and where they're from. For example, RESIDENTIAL BUILDER - TENNESSEE Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 149 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 06:45 pm:    No automatic way to do it. A manufacturer could have a questionaire, anonymous of course, asking for that information as a survey, but no automatic way. Craig J Froeter Junior Member Username: craig Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 07:53 pm:    We have a website tracking program that tells us what is looked at, time spent, how they got there and what state the internet provider is based in and/or gives us the domain name if the firm accesses thru their own domain. In that case they usually have multiple offices and you really never know what office was on the site. In this case we bookmark the domain and watch for additional visits. If they return and spend more time we will then send info to their offices but will not call until they request info. We also have a sign up option to download the catalog and if they fill that out we will turn the information over to the local Rep. We have an advantage that our products are few and specialized and do not require a lot of technical help. They also provide some very obvious advantages to use so the specifier can pretty much wing it on his own with out us bothering him. The real neat part about the tracking program is that we get to see how much time our competition spends on our site and what they look at. You know you have a good product when they checking in a couple of times a week. Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 28 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:12 am:    Colin is making a survey to help him and his clients serve us AEs better. He needs as many direct responses as he can get to his Aug 15 questions: 1. Should 4specs send each company in 4specs a list of visitors to its site - with visitor’s name, firm, phone, e-address? 2. Would you be unhappy if you were contacted by each company? 3. Would you use 4specs again if you knew these contacts came through 4specs? My response: 1. No. 2. Yes, most of the time. 3. Yes, but less often. (I only have so much time to meet my deadlines.) Reasons: I use 4specs sites two ways: A. To study a product line that I need to know more about; B. To find suitable product lines in the first place. To do B., I have to surf many product lines. I may be trying to find out who makes a 3x3 tile, or which windows have Miami-Dade approval. I may have to surf 20 sites to find 3 scores. I do not want to hear back from - to me - 17 duds. I may even be familiar with the 3 scores already - or have them in my spec. (AEs use 4specs to CONFIRM as well as STUDY ad SURF. Call this one C.) To do A., I agree with the many AEs who have already said what they need the most is a knowledgeable, live number to call (a knowledgeable, live e-address almost as good.) Help Colin. Respond directly to his questions. David E Lorenzini Senior Member Username: deloren Post Number: 39 Registered: 04-2000 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:39 am:    Colin, I agree precisely with Tom Heineman, except more forcefully so. I get enough unwanted email on a daily basis and don't need any more. On the practical side, my clients make most of the product decisions that are not already in my master. That is the reason I use 4specs most of the time--to find product data and manufacturer location data that I don't already have. If i need help, I know how to ask for it. If the manufacturers want to know what projects I am working on, I refer them to my clients. If manufacturers would spend more time improving their web sites so that I can easily find the information I need, instead of publishing their marketing data, my job would be a lot easier, and they might even get specified without trying to contact me. The next time they ask you for subscriber data, I suggest you refer them to the CSRF suggested WebFormat sample for how to create a useful product web site. We will all benefit. David Stutzman Senior Member Username: david_stutzman Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:57 am:    You may share my thoughts with anyone of your subscribers you wish. 1. Please do not give out my name and address, especially email address. I get enough email now that I spend about an hour a day just sorting the wheat from the chaff. And I am considering setting my email filter at the most aggressive setting I can to help reduce the volume. 2. I use 4specs as my personal web address book. I do not keep a favorites list for the manufacturers I can find on 4specs. While I sometimes browse the listings under specific sections to find manufacturers for products I seldom specify, I normally search for a particular manufacturer to find a specific website to research a particular product. If I cannot find the data on the website, I will call the manufacturer or the local product rep, myself. When I research products, I need the information immediately because of a deadline. I cannot wait for someone to respond to an email request sent through a website. 3. I suggest manufacturers ensure that their product technical data is available on their web sites. The data should be easily accessible, navigating through a minimum number of pages. The data must be downloadable and printable because I still need a project record and the web site may change tomorrow. Tom Heineman RA, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: tom_heineman Post Number: 29 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:20 am:    Here’s an attempt at a positive 4specs solution - for Producers as well as A/Es: If an A/E could indicate which of 3 modes he is in when he searches 4specs, it would help the producer to cull SURFING from STUDY and CONFIRMING click-ons. Make this a mini-menu window. This would only confirm to in-the-dark producers just how their sites are really being used. As so many A/Es have said above: “We surf a lot – that’s where we start”, and “We also want to be able to talk to a knowledgeable person quickly when we find a likely product and have a technical question.” There should then be another mini-menu window, perhaps at the end of each product description that allows the A/E to click on either: “Please have a technical rep call me [give number]” or “Please give me a number I can call for technical assistance [give number]” or [default] “No further questions”. John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:32 am:    1. No. 2. Yes. 3. Yes, but more selectively. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 85 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 02:44 pm:    Ditto Tom & David L & David S. Tom, the three-option link would be a good compromise solution if Colin is getting a lot of pressure from advertisers, but it would be an extra - and needless - step. When people visit the target site, they are certainly able to indicate their need for further contact, assuming the site has an obvious contact link. Changing the subject a little, it might be useful to both suppliers and 4specs users if linking through 4specs used a universal log-in/password for listed suppliers, similar to the "Net passport" used by MSN. Of course, without knowing how much trouble that would be, it's easy to suggest. Helaine K. Robinson CCS Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 74 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:56 am:    You'd be surprised how many of these sites either a) don't have an email address I can click on or b) have an email address which doesn't work. I detest the web forms because a) I have all the info the mfr needs in my email signature but it takes TIME to fill out the darn forms and b) Half of the forms won't work with our office IT security anyway! Nothing more frustrating than taking time to fill out the form and it won't work... Anonymous   Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 01:05 pm:    Does anyone have a web site address for Tenneco Building Products? I refuse to go through the AEC site that requires giving my information. If I can't get directly on the Tenneco site and other sites, I will drop them from my specifications. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 65 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 01:39 pm:    The company you are looking for is Pactiv, formerly know as Tenneco Building Products. Their website is www.green-guard.com D. Marshall Fryer Senior Member Username: dmfryer Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 01:58 pm:    Anon, Exactly how does your dropping the manufacturer benefit the client? Although I find signing in to websites as offensive as the next guy, it is certainly not a big enough deal to warrant eliminating a product that might otherwise be of benefit to the building owner. Better to sign in under an assumed name (as you have already proven yourself able to do). Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 02:17 pm:    A good friend of mine always fills out those forms as any good anarchist would, with a spurious name and address and a yahoo or other email (if required) used only for retrieving passwords and logins, that he deletes on a regular basis. But he’s paranoid. Or is he? Jim Brittell New member Username: jwbrittell Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 02:28 pm:    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you....