Gypsum Sheathing

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Author Message Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 06:14 pm:    Where do you all specify gypsum sheathing used as cladding on exterior walls? We’ve been locating it in Division 9 (although we specify gypsum roof underlayment board in Div 7), but we think it should be in Div 9 – where exactly, we don’t know because the MasterFormat is silent on this product. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 138 Registered: 05-2000 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 07:54 pm:    Try 06160 - I also just set up that section over the weekend. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 325 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 08:21 pm:    We specify gypsum sheathing in Section 09253 - Gypsum Sheathing Board. I do admit that it is a weird one since it is really not a "finish". I have also seen gypsum sheathing specified in Section 06100 - Rough Carpentry. Margaret G. Chewning CSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 25 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 08:18 am:    I agree with David; however, will typically specify the gyp sheathing in 06100 when I have wood framing. Irregardless for whether it is placed in 06100 or in 09260 with the Gypsum Wall Board products, I will include a related section reference pointing to it from the other section. Bob Johnson (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 10:09 am:    In MasterFormat 2004 Gypsum Sheathing is at 061643 with the other sheathing materials. The Explanations for 092900 Gypsum Board state that gypsum sheathing over metal framing may be included. This a reversal of the primary location of gypsum sheathing from 1995 but retains the option of either location as was the case in 1995. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 295 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:21 am:    99% of all of our use of Gypsum Sheathing (on walls) is in metal stud wall construction. Its not a finish product, so for me putting it in 9 has always seemed counter intuitive. Its not got anything to do with wood and is not a wood product, and in our use there is nothing related to Division 6 in its application. I put it in the metal stud section which I treat as an assembly and performance specification. In the DC and Baltimore area, when it is used in conjunction with metal studs, I have seen a lot of specifications that way. When I have looked at office masters from structural engineers that I have wored with over the years from DC area, Baltimore, and from the Dallas Texas area, every one of them has put it in their metal stud section. We have never had a question related to 'where is it'. Gypsum roof deck sheathing, I put that in Division 7 in my 'Basic Roofing Materials and Methods' section and with good reason there too - many manufacturer's require the use of a specific type of gypsum product. We have done a very few wood frame projects (that 1%), and there, I put it in the rough carpentry section. William Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 59 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 08:46 am:    I'm with William, think Work Results... We put the exterior gyp-sheathing in our light gauge steel framing section or rough carpentry based on frame type. We also put roofing underlayment in the Div 07 section where it is required. Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 108 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 02:08 pm:    I (and our structural engineers) put exterior gyp sheathing in 05400 with the light gage framing. We consider the section analogous to 06100 -- and provide the framing and sheathing in one section. I've been doing this for years, and it hasn't been a bid problem here; and then its not dependent on any of the 4 different types of exterior cladding (stone, tile, metal panels, etc.) that we might use on any one building. I do carry the air/water barrier in a Division 7 section, but I think the sheathing is best handled at the time of framing. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 02:18 pm:    As a general rule, since gypsum sheathing is a gypsum board product, we include it in Div. 9 in the gypsum board section and cross-reference it with the "Related Sections". Sometimes we may include it in the Lath & Plaster section when using it with exterior plaster/stucco. In any event, it always occurs in Div. 9 because the gypsum board supplier may never see it in Div. 5 or 6. Another related issue is the use of building paper vs. "Tyvek" as a vapor barrier over the sheathing. California Building Code requires 2 layers of Type D paper over the sheathing. Has anyone had any luck in convincing them about using "Tyvek" or a similar product instead? Anonymous   Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 02:25 pm:    Suppliers reading specs? Your joking, right? Around here, they're lucky to ever SEE them, much less read them. Helaine K. Robinson CCS Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 64 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:14 pm:    Any comments on the new BPB GlasRoc sheathing? Shelby N. Gordonswyth Junior Member Username: shelbyng Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:17 pm:    Could one not make a strong case for specifying gypsum sheathing in Division 7, in its own section? It isn't metal, wood, plastic or a finish, so it doesn't naturally fall into Divisions 5, 6 or 9, except as an "accessory," which it really isn't. It has a different function - enclosure and weather protection - unrelated to framing. Since that is its purpose, however, it IS weather-resistant - whether it is conventional or glass-faced - and is often sealed or taped to further enhance its weather resistance. That places it squarely in Division 7. And sheathing isn't necessarily always gypsum-based - there are foil-faced fiberboard, foam and cementious sheathings, even though those may seldom appear in commercial construction. So, all weather-resistant and insulating sheathings should go in Division 7. Even plywood, OSB, wood fiberboard and other products that are thought of more as wood products than water-resistant materials and so might seem to belong in Division 6, should go in 7 instead. We put metal and wood siding in Division 7, not 5 or 6. Sheathing should go there too. It seems so clear. Why were it not always thus? Ralph Liebing Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 98 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:50 pm:    Who wants to hear that gypsum sheathing is slated for-- 06 16 43 Shelby N. Gordonswyth Member Username: shelbyng Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:58 pm:    Looks like a birthdate to me (perhaps because I'm about half a month older...). John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 173 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 01:28 pm:    Think system not product? I relate it to gypsum board and specify it in Section 09253 - Gypsum Sheathing. I suppose it could be part of the exterior finish system. But I think that is more confusing than having it be a "narrowscope" section under 09250 - Gypsum Board. Lynn Javoroski Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 134 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:52 pm:    Hmmm, Shelby, I'm about 2 months younger - that was a good year! William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 296 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:35 pm:    There are many rationales for putting any specific product in a number of places. And there is nothing wrong with that. Its what part of a system a component is, or how it is work related that makes the most logical grouping for any given item. Now, if a master title that was 'SHEATHING' for all types of sheathing (cement composite board, gypsum, plywood, insulation sheathing, etc.) then it might make sense to see a single area for these. Curiously, I personally think that ends up being a division 7 series of sections rather than anything else. I say curiously, which means curious to me for that is not a location where I have ever specified any sheathing. Mostly my own practice has involved different kinds of sheathing, but only one type at a time. And I put it in as part of the wall framing system, so it ends up in 5 or 6 depensing on the framing type. My personal least favorite place for it would be 9. Sure, gypsum sheathing is a gypsum product. But most metal coating systems (05080) are paints and they go in 5, not 9, and they are sure more of a finish and related more directly to paints than gypsum sheathing is to interior drywall. And, regardless of where anyone places it, likely no one has had a question from the contractor asking "where is the sheathing specified." So, its best placed where it makes the most logical sense to you. And if you ever do get a question from a contractor about where any item is specified, unless its in the 'dumb question category' related to simply not looking in the project manual at all, then likely that would be a good indication that it just might be in the wrong place and you need examine your logic. Otherwise, its like the rose, which by any other name (or location), its still a rose. William Ralph Liebing Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 100 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:25 am:    Lynn/Shelby-- I wish I could remember what a good year '43 was!! But being about as old as dirt, I leave the evaluation to you youngsters. But seriously, am I remiss in this, but the new CSI numbering system has Gypsum Sheathing slated as I noted? Guess they see it more in the context of work to be done, rather than a product of certain content [I know I'll get "bombed" (a '43 term) for that view] John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:50 am:    William (and others) - As of the 11/03 update MasterSpec now offers a Section 06060 - Sheathing. About the only thing not included are the cementitious backer unit products. John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:53 am:    Oops - Section 06160. Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 03:47 pm:    I never thought that my posting would generate so many answers. After reading them all, I can’t arrive at a consensus. Opinions as to the location of gypsum sheathing are all over the map and the new MasterFormat doesn’t resolve the issue. Assuming that the project we’re specifying has steel studs (05400) and wood studs (06100), which is not that uncommon, then according to some, gypsum sheathing as a “work result” could be specified in 2 locations – it doesn’t make sense and we won’t do that. The only reason for MasterFormat to assign a Division 6 locator for this product is because people assume that it’s similar to wood sheathing; this may be true elsewhere, but not on the West Coast where wood sheathing is used to add shear resistance to wood-framed walls and is a structural material. Division 6 doesn’t make sense either, at least for anything built West of Denver. As for insulation sheathing in Division 6, that’s even more far fetched. As for assigning a Division 9 locator, that’s not better then trying to locate it in Division 6. Division 9 is labeled finishes; gypsum sheathing is not a finish material. I understand that gypsum is the major material in gypsum board and gypsum sheathing, but so is Portland cement in concrete and ceramic tile mortar. If we take Bill Pegues first approach, which is to specify this Product as a “part of a system,” what is the poor specifier to do if both wood and steel studs are used on the same project? And how is the material supplier to know where the thing is specified? Remember folks that subs are not the only ones reading the specs. I prefer Shelby N. Gordonswyth and Bill’s second suggestion which is to assign a Division 7 locator for all sheathing, possibly excepting wood. It would then be easy to locate the product and I believe that is the only logical location for the sheathing. Thank you all for this lively discussion. I believe that’s what Colin had in mind when he created this forum. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 03:03 pm:    As I mentioned previously, Firms I have worked for always specified the gypsum sheathing along with the other gypsum board products. I guess this will never be fully resovled. For more fun and to add another wrinkle - where would you specify the building paper or "Tyvek-type" material that goes over the gypsum sheathing? In Div. 6, or with the gypsum sheathing? Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 89 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 03:36 pm:    In the same section as the sheathing, whether the sheathing is plywood or gypsum-based. The sheathing and weather barrier/building wrap/ whateveryouwanttocallit are part of a system and should be specified as a system. Richard L Matteo Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 03:45 pm:    Dave, I was hoping someone would say that. I totally agree. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 174 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 04:02 pm:    Which system? If the gypsum sheathing is part of a composite that includes portland cement plaster, would it be part of the portland cement plaster Section in Division 9? If the gypsum sheathing is part of the Exterior Insulation and Finish System, would it be part of a Division 7 Section? If there are several composite finishes on the exterior, several of which include gypsum sheathing, would the gypsum sheathing be specified in several Sections? The same is true for building paper. And are joint sealers part of the finish composite or a separate matter? Is this a case where there is no one true answer but several answers that are workable? William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 297 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 04:34 pm:    Wow, look how many of us have nothing to do on a Sunday afternoon! I totally disagree that the air barrier material should be with the sheathing. Currently I only put the sheathing in the associated stud material section because it can be part of that system. I just don't have a need to go to such lengths in my current practice. In addition, in my personal situation, the sheathing is not used with other materials. I do have a place to put air barriers in an independent section, 07270 in MF1995. And, where they may be part of the sheating stud system, they are also used elsewhere. The air barrier material is a complete system in itself, independent of any particular substrate. If you put it just in the sheathing section, you run the risk that that is all that it is going to cover. So, you get no coverage over the other material substrate (concrete columns, slab edges, cmu backup...). You may show it, but you are really running a chance of raising a contradiction by the Contractor claiming that the air barrier is specified with the sheathing and metal studs, not with the cmu or the concrete. Air barriers are meant to cover the facade - used only over some substrates, you have no air barrier system. Also, air barriers are more complex than just fastening something over the studs, there is all the taping, the special fasteners for the sheet products, the bridging materials over dissimilar substrates and the special preparations for penetrations (windows, doors, louvers, vents, etc.), flashing coordination. There are also the different types of systems (sheet types, asphaltic types, acrylic types), there are the different transmission requirements (does it act as a water vapor barrier, or do you need something that blocks air and free water yet permits water vapor to breath through it), and do you support contractor options, permit or require different systems on different substrates (and then how do you bridge those). William Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 90 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 10:10 pm:    William: All I do on Sunday is watch the Olympics and troll through 4specs. What a life, eh? Asphalt felts/building wraps are not, repeat not, air barriers. They are moisture barriers (which is different than vapor barriers/retarders). I agree that air barriers go in their own section, 07270. But that is answering a question that was not asked. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 298 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 10:24 pm:    Dave, I don't myself consider felts as a viable system for much of anything, unless I get caught in a timewarp back to the 1950s or so. Tyvek, though I don't really like to use it, it is generically an air barrier, falling into the category of water and air barrier, water vapor breathable. Here is a quote from the web site on this point... >>>begins... Non-perforated Tyvek® is continuous spunbonded nonwoven sheeting with a fibrous structure that naturally allows moisture vapor transmission. But, the micropores are small enough to resist liquid or bulk water and air infiltration. <<< It goes on to talk about how not all barriers perform all 3 funtions equally, which they say, theirs does. I am not hyping for Tyvek, far from it. But they themselves consider their product an air barrier. *** Even so, if all you are using it for is as a moisture barrier, do you still want to limit it only to covering the sheathing? What about over cmu that may occur on the same facade - and the concrete that is exposed. Hopefully the building wrap is put over the entire facade, not just the sheathing. William Dennis Hall (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:21 pm:    I think the answer to this question is again, it depends. If I specify it as an assembly with studs, I include it with the metal or wood stud section, and if I specify it as a stand alone work result, I include it in Division 06. This is simular to the way I think about glass and and number of other products. It all depends on the project and the project delivery process for that project. Doug Frank FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 79 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:25 am:    This whole “Work Result” thing is starting to confuse me now. I thought I had it figured out until I started reading this stuff about gypsum sheathing. Now I’m not so sure. If one specifies gypsum sheathing in the Metal Stud spec section (because it’s screwed to one side of the studs), would I then expect to see gypsum drywall in the metal stud section too (it’s screwed to the other side of the studs after all) (the “Assembly” concept suggests that we might even include thermal insulation that gets installed in the stud cavity between the sheathing and gyp bd?) Where does it stop? The gyp bd gets painted; probably gets a resilient base applied; maybe gets an acoustical ceiling suspension system edge molding screwed to it; ,,,, We don’t specify Roof Board Insulation in the Metal Roof Deck section. Why not? After all, the insulation gets screwed to the deck, just like sheathing gets screwed to studs. If a project had both wood studs and metal studs, would we spec sheathing in both sections? To me this whole deal sounds like we’re locating the sheathing spec based, not upon that actual material or the Work Result but, upon “Who” is actually installing it! That flies in the face of everything we believe about specifying! MasterFormat 2004 lists a specific location, “06 16 43 Gypsum Sheathing”. I don’t understand why I would want or need to spec it anyplace else (even though that looks suspiciously like a location based on the product and not a work result)? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 335 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:00 pm:    Doug, I am also confused. I thought that Uniformat was system/assembly based while MasterFormat was product based. Am I wrong? I also thought that MasterFormat is used as a product literature filing system, but have heard to the contrary. Doug Frank FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 81 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:12 pm:    Actually David, Dennis Hall has been preaching all along that MasterFormat is "Not" product-based but is broken down by "Work Results". The most common argument being steel pipe; Handrails; plumbing piping; fire protection piping; Natural Gas; etc. Pipe has to be spec'd in the appropriate section(s) based upon its actual use (read Work Result) rather than only once in a Division 5 section. I figured that made some sense in the beginning but anomalies keep cropping up, like gypsum sheathing, that make me question that decision. I'm sure Dennis will weigh in here shortly with his thoughts as well. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 255 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:16 pm:    MasterFormat is not a "pure" classification system, as Dennis (or another team member) pointed out in discussion some months ago. In a true classification system, each thing could only go in one place. MasterFormat, for compatibility with prior versions and for ease of use, will always have these anomolies--is it a material, or is it a work result, and whose work result is it? I think that it can accommodate them okay, and as this discussion thread shows, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 63 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:28 pm:    I agree with John, its still the same as under MF 95. You have broad scope and narrow scope sections. If I had a project with wood and steel stud framing, I would most likely use Section 06 16 43 for gyp sheathing, where as if I have a small office remodel, I put metal studs and gyp in the same section. Its up to the judgement of the specifier how complex the project or system is and which type of section you need. The big difference now is that almost everything you would use on a "typical" job has been assigned a narrow scope number. Randall L. Cox Advanced Member Username: randy_cox Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:16 am:    As an aside: I just want to chime in with my one point five cents. I once thought that every book in America had the same catalog number (as content belongs in a spec section) in every library. Then my wife went to library school, and I learned the location of some books vary from library to library, depending on the library’s collection, history, and experience with their patrons. Just as a book on Frank Lloyd Wright would be filed under the architecture heading in a small public library, or under the Frank Lloyd Wright heading in a large architecture school library, the location for gypsum sheathing will vary for us, depending on the overall job, our local conventions, and the experiences we’ve had with contractors. Randy Shelby N. Gordonswyth Advanced Member Username: shelbyng Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:44 am:    Good point, Randy. Not to mention that some libraries use the Library of Congress System, whose numbers are conveniently printed on the back of the title page, and some use the Dewey Decimal System, which I understand is copyrighted and trademarked, but still used more "freely" (as described above). (But booksellers use still another system - ISBN.) Since sheathing (of whatever kind) and building paper ('nother thread...) make most sense in Division 07 - not 06 - I may well exercise my specifier's prerogative to put them there, in sections of their own (maybe lumping building paper together with air barriers, vapor retarders and kindred products in a section of their own.) Is it too late to move sheathing from 06 16 43 to Division 07 in MF 2004? If so, can it be done on the errata slip, or the 2005 supplement? (Or, as with MF95, the second, corrected printing?) John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 175 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 03:48 pm:    I think we should put gypsum sheathing, building paper ("weather barrier"), air barriers and other miscellaneous stuff we can't agree on a location for, in Division 17 in a Section such as "170005 - Miscellaneous Stuff". We could also include foundation drains that are within the 5-foot line that the civil engineer refuses to specify as part of the storm drainage system and the mechanical engineer refuses to include with rainwater leaders. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 04:33 pm:    Actually, I proposed some time ago a Division 19-5/8 to some of my colleagues. It would include all the stuff the A/E thinks is needed, but doesn't put on the Drawings (or in the Specs). I have heard of a Contractor who carries a line item for SICS (Stuff I Can't See)-varies depending on the type of building, the owner, and the architect. His SICS factor is definitely higher with some architects because of their use of Division 19-5/8. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 176 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 11:15 am:    Division 19-5/8? Is that the metric version of MasterFormat? Lynn Javoroski Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 137 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:11 pm:    John, Haven't you read or seen the Harry Potter stories? They depart from platform 9-3/4, which, if you are a muggle, you can't get to but if you are a wizard, you have no trouble reaching! Clearly, if you are a spec wizard, Division 19-5/8 is easy to spec. Shelby N. Gordonswyth Senior Member Username: shelbyng Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:26 pm:    I haven't read or seen the Harry Potter series, but I remember that, as a 9- or 10-year-old kid playing "gangsters" with a friend, we assigned the number 1111-1/4 to a famous inmate of our own private prison...there's a fascination in fractions, nostalgically maintained by the 3 5/8-inch steel stud, and by CMU. Dennis Hall (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 07:48 pm:    Hi folks, This subject brings up for discuss the concepts of broadscope, mediumscope and narrowscope sections. This is not new to MasterFormat 2004. Gypsum Board Assemblies in MF 95 can include metal studs, gypsum board, and insulation. And yes, a roofing section can include the products, gypsum board, insulation, roofing membrane, and gravel. It seems that some firms (specifiers) like broadscope sections to reduce the size of their project manuals, while others like narrowscope sections that make office masters easier to incorporate into a project manual with little editing. Both are fine and can be mixed in the same project manual, however care must be taken not to repeat subject matter. BTW, internally McGraw-Hill had a Division 99 for Other Stuff. Personally, I feel Division 10 is for Small Other Stuff and Division 13 is for Large Other Stuff. Doug, maybe this example will help with understanding of work results. Beer in my refrigerator is a consumerable product. Beer at the factory is a work result of the combination of multiple products; mountain spring water, choice hops, select barley, yeast, and rice. After care and expert effort is applied by the master brewer to the products the results of his/her work is "beer." Oh yea, bottling is also involved in the work result. Therefore, beer can be both a product and a work result depending on timing. Gypsum board is a lot like beer except less tasty. It can be a product in a broadscope section and a work result in a narrowscope section. Dennis David Stutzman Senior Member Username: david_stutzman Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 10:16 pm:    Dennis, Are the terms broadscope, mediumscope and narrowscope returning to MasterFormat 2004? They were deleted in MasterFormat 1995 in favor of Level 1, Level 2, etc. Mitch Miller,AIA ,CSI,CCS Senior Member Username: m2architek Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 08:12 am:    David: just remember (from your beer example) that gysum is used in many household products, including Beer! Shelby N. Gordonswyth Senior Member Username: shelbyng Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 09:55 am:    "Division 10 is for Small Other Stuff and Division 13 is for Large Other Stuff." LOL! Thanks, Dennis, for lightening up MF 2004 a bit. (However, including "rice" as a beer ingredient leads me to think you've been reading the fine print on too many Budweiser labels...as a specifier, you're no doubt aware that it doesn't comply with one of the oldest quality standards still in existence, the German purity law...) Gerard Sanchis (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:27 pm:    The analogy to beer is fun but does it really apply to building systems? I don’t think so. We’re not asked to duplicate the beer but simply to enjoy it while drinking it. For a building system, we’re asking the fabricator, supplier, sub and GC to duplicate as closely as possible in the field what we show on paper and describe in the specs. All the discussions on broadscope, mediumscope and narrowscope sections, and work results is sophistry, and is of little use to the users. Let’s not forget that the specs are first and foremost a communication tool. If a fabricator, supplier, sub and GC has to guess as to the location of a building product (now let’s see, is it in Division 6, 7 or 9? Hold it, it could also be in 5.), then we are missing the point and we shouldn’t complain that contractors don’t read our specs.