| Author |
Message |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2018 - 12:39 pm: |    |
I was asked to provide a proposal for a project that will be using the new LEED v4. I have done a few LEED 2009 projects, and similiar sustainable projects, but never a LEED v4 project.
A fellow specifier friend says LEED v4 is a completely new system and has a very complicated way of determining points. She has says many architects are unaware of the changes and have been caught off guard by the complexity and time-consuming nature of LEED v4 versus the previous versions.
What has been your experience with LEED v4?
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1699
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 02:02 pm: | |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 410
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 03:42 pm: | |
David, I have written several guide specs with Leed v4, but not done a leed project. So, since I am as prepared as Bueller, I posit that the important questions are,
- Has your client done LEED 4 projects?
- Will they have a leed consultant on team?
- Will they be referring you to products or expecting you to do product research?
- How much are you going to raise your fee to cover your risk? Or are you going to see it as an investment of your time to learn a new system?
- Can they show you other product manuals so you can see their expectations?
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru |
Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C
Senior Member
Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip
Post Number: 408
Registered: 02-2014
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 04:22 pm: | |
Here are a couple challenges. (I'm not a LEED-basher, so I hope no one takes this the wrong way.)
One issue with v4 is that there are more intricate options for how to meet the new Low-Emissions credit. The testing is now the VOCs emitted into a standard space as tested in a lab. It is said to be a more accurate way of measuring VOCs. There does not seem to be a shortage of manufacturers who now have the certificates. UL GreenGuard is one of many examples of CDPH SM based certs. So, expect more reliance on certificate submittals from 3rd party testing agencies to be the measurement in your specs instead of g/L VOC measurements, although it may be one option for wet-applied products. Also, in some categories it is allowed for only 90% of products to comply. There seem to be a few more design options in various credits -- Low-Emitting is just one example.
These kinds of options fall upon the design team more than they are used to, and although they are design-phase credits, it may also come down to the Contractor if they are involved early on, to determine feasibility too. I point it out to my clients and say that I will spec the low-emitting products wherever I think they could be applicable but I will rely on them to let me where they may decide to waive it due to the design process. I am keeping tuned in for where there may be cost considerations. Otherwise, how are we to spec the 90%? Say submit the certificate if you feel like it? I bet it will be more than 10% of them who do not feel like it.
Another issue for some is the new material optimization credits, due to unfamiliarity. Having unprecedented information about material ingredients is a good thing. Wanting to dive in and deal with that is yet another thing. If you are the type of person who studies your food labels and nutrition science, than this is for you & your clients' buildings! The L in LEED is Leadership.
We now have a better standard, so weave the new Reference Guide into your specs because the LEED 2009 ship has sailed over the horizon, and we're already 5 years into the new v4. |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1700
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2018 - 04:50 pm: | |
I will answer your questions:
- Has your client done LEED 4 projects? LEED 2009 yes, but I do not believe LEED v4 projects.
- Will they have a leed consultant on team? Yes. I spoke with the consultant and they seem quite knowledgeable, but I do not know the scope of their work or involvement with specifications.
- Will they be referring you to products or expecting you to do product research? Yes. They will pick products but expect me to do research to see that it conforms to LEED requirements.
- How much are you going to raise your fee to cover your risk? I have no idea how much extra time will be involved with this LEED project, so I do not know how much extra to charge.
- Or are you going to see it as an investment of your time to learn a new system? My biggest fear is becoming the world's most knowledgeable LEED specification consultant who is bankrupt and homeless. I would rather learn LEED v4 without putting myself in financial peril.
- Can they show you other product manuals so you can see their expectations? Good question. I will ask.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Guest (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2018 - 12:25 pm: | |
Based on your answers to Michael's questions, I'd suggest negotiating your contract to change your responsibility. They have a LEED consultant ... shouldn't it be their job to research the selected products to see that it conforms to the LEED requirements?
Additionally, find out if the consultant has language for you to put into your specs (many do, although it's not the best in terms of proper specification practice). If they do, negotiate your contract to indicate that they will give you the language and you'll insert it, but you take no responsibility for it ... you aren't the LEED expert, they are. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1752
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2018 - 02:53 pm: | |
Also, it seems inevitable that you'll need to do a LEED 4 project in the not too distant future. There's a first time for everything... why not now? |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1701
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2018 - 01:14 pm: | |
Guest, I agreed. I would prefer that the LEED consultant "spoon feed" me language to put in the specifications. I can then clean up the language and put it in the appropriate place.
On a previous 2009 project I worked with a nationally know LEED consultant did very little to help me write the specifications. Instead they just put together a matrix of the specifications and indicated what credit to go after. For example they indicated that cast-in-place concrete would have recycled content but did not indicate which items (cement, rebar, water, aggregates, sand, admixtures, sealers, curing compounds, formwork, waterstops, vapor retarders, stains/dyes, etc.) I ended up spending as much time messing around with LEED as I did writing the specs.....and that really was not my job.
So yes I would expect the LEED consultant to do a majority of the research and product selection. After all, I am just the lowly specifier. ;-)
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1702
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2018 - 01:17 pm: | |
John, I will spend time learning LEED v4 on my own. I would prefer to go into a project well versed in the new rating system. I do not want to learn on the job, especially if my fees do not cover all the additional time.
David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
Robin E. Snyder
Senior Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 740
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2018 - 10:36 pm: | |
uggg... I cringe when i see the phrase, "lowly specifier", even in jest! That's like a doctor saying, "I am just the lowly neurosurgeon" |
Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap
Senior Member
Username: lgoodrob
Post Number: 350
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2018 - 09:56 am: | |
David,
Bottom line, specifiers need to learn LEEDv4. We are now at almost 50% v4 or v4-able.
Have you looked at the sample language I posted to our Kalin Associates website, following our GreenBuild 2016 presentation? We even included sample Div 01 sections (MasterSpec-based).
I have yet to meet a sustainability consultant who is also a competent specifier. You should develop your own language and rely on the sustainability consultant to identify which building products and materials need to meet which credit. Demand that they be specific. Do not let them insist on repeating the same information, for every conceivable credit 2-3 times in each Section. You are the specifications expert. Render unto Caesar, etc...
- |
Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap
Senior Member
Username: lgoodrob
Post Number: 351
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2018 - 09:57 am: | |
Robin,
Two words, "Ben Carson." |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2018 - 12:18 pm: | |
I don't want to make this about bashing LEED consultants, but... My experience is that not only do they not understand specification basics, they barely understand materials. Early on, I had a LEED consultant who wanted to make the Contractor solely responsible for getting the project certified which led me to believe that not only did he not really understand contract documents, but didn't really understand LEED. Another consultant who I was initially kind of impressed with, wanted me to include VOC limitations for touchup on clear anodic finishes. I stopped listening after that.
I am seeing almost no new LEED projects, and my take on it after some initial professional development several years ago is that the impact on "architectural" stuff is relatively small. Although there are still some prerequisites that need to be dealt with, a lot of the concern with recycled content and regional materials has either gone away or is embedded in the product declarations. The architect still needs to be concerned with IAQ (and VOC limitations), but a great deal of LEED 4.0 has to do with energy. If you are following IEEC 2015, you may already be beyound compliant.
So, bone up on the basic concepts and take a look at what Lisa has written. Try to get a good overview before wading into the weeds. The most important thing to understand is the Owner and the Architect's objectives in obtaining LEED certification. This is, after all, supposed to be a collaborative process. That will lead you toward how deeply you need to go.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
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