| Author |
Message |
Robin E. Snyder
Senior Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 336
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 11:51 pm: |    |
interesting read: http://greensource.construction.com/news/2010/101022Class-Action_Suit.asp |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 562
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 12:55 am: | |
it looks to me like another case of serpents bargaining for the right to squirm
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1159
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:17 pm: | |
George,
I don't understand your metaphor. What do you mean? |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 570
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:48 pm: | |
when serpents bargain for the right to squirm
and the sun strikes to gain a living wage-
when thorns regard their roses with alarm
and rainbows are insured against old age
when every thrush may sing no new moon in
if all screech-owls have not okayed his voice
-and any wave signs on the dotted line
or else an ocean is compelled to close
when the oak begs permission of the birch
to make an acorn-valleys accuse their
mountains of having altitude-and march
denounces april as a saboteur
then we'll believe in that incredible
unanimal mankind(and not until)
-e.e.cummings
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:58 pm: | |
Wow, George. I, too, love e.e. cummings; I'm just not as familiar with his work - especially not as familiar as you obviously are! But that's another great one... |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 03:03 pm: | |
ohh... an educated architect. my heart quivers. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 571
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 12:51 pm: | |
One of the joys of a liberal arts education is that you can dredge up the sludge of your youth at odd times to make off the wall connections. I am not sure it makes us better architects, specifiers, or even better door hardware consultant wannabes, but it does make us whizzes at Trivial Pursuit.
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 02:06 pm: | |
People who say they don't read, as if they are proud of it, irk me...there's nothing wrong with a liberal arts education. It can help you be "educated" and not just "trained"... |
James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: jsandoz
Post Number: 74
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 09:08 am: | |
We've strayed from the topic of this thread but I'll try to get us back to it in my usual round-about way. I graduated from high school over 30 years ago. Yesterday I sent a birthday card to my high school world literature teacher. Yes, we have kept in touch all these years. For my part it is out of appreciation for what he gave to me as a teacher and mentor and because I genuinely enjoy having conversations with the man.
What's more important than all the great trivia I was able to garner (and it is fun to use that in board games), is the ability to think critically which this man and a few other teachers and professors imparted to me. There are so many sources of information today and it is difficult, if not impossible, to determine the veracity of some. It is essential, as in the case of "green building," to be able to evaluate what is being presented.
It's a shame that such a lawsuit has been filed. It makes me think the parties involved are more interested in what they can gain from the movement than what they can contribute.
By the way, George, I thought "serpents bargaining for the right to squirm" was amusing and most appropriate. |
Ellis C. Whitby, AIA, PE, CSI, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 09:17 am: | |
I have always found it disturbing the number of people who have stopped reading after graduation, or who only read narrowly (for example, professional literature, or the sports pages). As an engineering graduate (Penn State AE 1974), it pains me to admit that I see this more frequently in engineers than with architects, but I do notice it in all professions and occupations. On the other hand, all too many (dare I say most?) “Liberal Arts” graduates have as much grasp of scientific and engineering principals as a dog has of the aesthetics of Rembrandt’s Leiden period. Many seem to revel in this ignorance. I do not notice this as much with scientists, many of whom appreciate the arts.
Maybe I am disturbed because I am addicted to reading, anything at all times. [OK, I confess, there are some things that I will not read (for example: Harlequin Romance Novels; post-modern deconstructionist philosophy and its ilk) or cannot read (for example: theoretical physics; biochemical papers).]
If you stop learning, you are dead; You just haven’t noticed it yet. |
Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap
Senior Member
Username: lgoodrob
Post Number: 107
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 09:37 am: | |
Ellis,
I love your final quote. It's going on my FB page right now!
This morning, Lee Johnson and I were just talking about the creative and interesting things people do (or don't do) outside of work.
- |
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 396
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:10 am: | |
thinking of quotes - and reading - I was reminded of Rat's quote to Mole in The Wind in the Willows (just replace boats with books)
...'Believe me, my young friend, there is NOTHING--absolute nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing,' he went on dreamily...
On the other hand
This one from Oscar Wilde I believe from The Importance of Being Ernest; is all about information. Like books in the 1500's, the Internet has permanently and significantly changed how we store, move and access information.
"It is a very sad thing that nowadays there is so little useless information." |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1077
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 03:22 pm: | |
I think a lawsuit is long overdue against the USGBC; I'm not certain that this guy and this lawsuit is the one that will adequately state the case. The USGBC has been operating as an ex-officio building official in many jurisdictions now, but they have had no accountability to anyone for this entire time. That simply has to stop. If this lawsuit doesn't do it, someone will find a better one that will.
My quote:
"A slow death comes for those...who don't allow themselves, at least once in their life, to disregard sensible advice."
Pablo Neruda |
Paul Gerber
Senior Member
Username: paulgerber
Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 03:58 pm: | |
OK I'll chime in with my $0.02 on the subject as well...
In Canada we have the CaGBC (Canada Green Building Council), which pays licencing fees to the USGBC for the use of the LEED program in Canada.
There are a few issues that I have with the program in its entirety:
1) anyone can write the LEED acreditation exam and become a LEED AP. This was driven home to me when my nephew wrote the exam when he was in his final year in college for architectural technology. Despite having next to ZERO real life experience in architecture (other than a couple of co-op work terms) he was supposedly "qualified" to call himself a LEED Accredited Professional.
2) no requirement for continuing education to maintain your LEED AP designation...although this may have changed recently in Canada with the adoption of LEED 2009 models this past summer.
3) the model that energy modeling is measured against is a "theoretical" building...we all know how much theory comes into play in the every day real world.
4) the biggest issue I have seen is the chasing of the credit for the sake of the credit and a certain level of certification; instead of making a good decision for what will best serve the needs of the client and project based on sound engineering/building envelope/building science perspectives. Also from my understanding LEED has always been targeted for the top 25% of project...the "LEEDers". What makes these building significantly better functioning than the other 75% of buildings?
Early on in the LEED bandwagon jumping our CEO stated that any building that is reasonably designed, detailed and constructed should be able to attain LEED Certified. This statement has stuck in my mind and been proven right IMHO. Of course we do a lot of institutional work and nobody has ever accused my firm of building a cheap building. But is LEED certification really a consideration from a slap-it-up retail type development?
I have heard rumblings that there are many dissatisfied building owners and occupants who have not seen the energy savings promised/anticipated or the systems discussed to make the indoor environment a better place to be. Regardless of what kind of architecture we practice (and if we practice long enough we may get it right some day) I think the biggest obligation we owe our clients is to make the best decisions possible to give them the building they want for the budget they have established regardless of whether or not it gets them a point towards a certification or not!!
One of our MEP consultants who has been involved in many of our LEED projects to date recently conveyed his take on the future based on his attendance at GreenBuild. He spoke more of ASHRAE 189.1 and Revit than anything from USGBC or CaGBC. In his humble opinion ASHRAE 189.1 will take over...I guess only time will tell.
My quote - "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnham
Ride it like you stole it!!! |
J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 04:45 pm: | |
My firm has worked on a number of LEED projects to date. What has impressed me most is that LEED requires (at least now) more conversation and collaboration between (1) the various members of the design team, (2) the Owner, and (3) the Contractor. To successfully achieve certification, the design, construction, and commissioning of the project must achieve goals which are multi-dimensional. That is to say, that if you concentrate on energy effeciency alone, you probably will not achieve certification. No project which concentrated only on products with recycled content, regional manufacturer, or low VOC can achieve certification. I am firmly in the camp that a responsibly designed project should easily achieve certification at the lowest level with some minor modifications, significantly more energy modeling and documentation, payment of fees, and more documentation on construction. I also believe that certification at the highest level will required a significantly higher design and construction budget.
There are projects which cannot be certified. A single-story commercial strip shopping center "cold dark shell" simply does not have enough to certify.
I don't think ASHRAE 189.1 will replace LEED because it does not have the multi-dimensional approach; it concentrates on lowering energy consumption through a more effecient building. LEED encourages this through encouraging site access to mass transit and parking facilities of for automobiles with alternative fuels.
What I have seen (or heard about) is owners (both public and private) who are looking for some sort of third-party verification of these types of design solutions which building codes do not address. Parenthetically, I am not sure that building codes, with their historic concentration on building safety, should address. I don't think USGBC is to blame for this, but rather should be commended for setting a set of standards out there that can be quantified. Now, whether or not these have the desired impact remains to be seen.
As for energy savings... It is one thing to design an energy efficient building, and it is quite another thing to operate it efficiently. Maintenance staff on a "high performance" building should be required to thoroughly understand the building as a system and how it must be operated and maintained. And what may happen to the system as a whole if a component is tampered with. I would be willing to bet that many of the buildings not getting the "energy savings" they anticipated have air conditioning filters that are not changed on a regular basis.
Energy savings are another matter. Early on, I fielded questions from Owners and other design professionals about the savings they might anticipate. Everyone wanted a bottom line number in dollars and cents. My response was that this would depend entirely on the price of fuel (oil, natural gas, coal, yellow cake uranium). You should see savings in kilowatt hours or BTUs, If a barrel of oil currently costs $60 and it rises to an average of $90 during the first 5 years of building operation, your electrical bill may be higher. It won't be as high as it might be if you did not have a "high performing" building, but it will be higher.
I do think USGBC may have "oversold" high performance buildings with very think research, but I do think most of the ideas are reasonably sound. One of my clients currently doing a LEED project tests each LEED strategy by looking for a dollars and cents payback. Is the LEED solution cheaper to begin with? If it isn't, how long does it take to get that LEED strategy to pay for itself?
I think this bozo is going to loose his case unless USGBC has more bozos working for them than he does. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 04:24 pm: | |
My experience peripherally working on projects in Switzerland and Germany is that those countries get much higher performing buildings than the US does, and they do it entirely by building code requirements. This is where I think we have to go, rather than relying on LEED or its ilk.
But there are societal issues as well: it seems completely ludicrous to me that a building can qualify for LEED anything if it has no access to functional transit. Transit should (in my opinion) be a prequisite for any of these ratings.
The second is that we seem to have a societal intolerance ...for tolerance. A colleague of mine said that one problem with building systems is that we seem to require a very tiny delta -- 72 degrees plus or minus 1 degree. (slight exaggeration, but slight). The acceptable delta in most naturally conditioned buildings is considerably more than 2 degrees. And, we used to consider that normal. People who take transit or walk to work learn to dress for the temperature that day, not the idealized temperature in their heads.
Owners have had high performance buildings long before LEED; and if there is one benefit to the process is that it does require confirmation that what was specified, was actually installed. However, conscientious owners were paying for commissioning services as part of doing a good building project. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 12:03 pm: | |
here's a legal update:http://www.greenrealestatelaw.com/2010/12/pointing-to-gifford-v-usgbc-british-building-scientist-identifies-global-green-building-performance-failures/ |
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