Rapidly renewable materials

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Author Message George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 10:56 am:    OK, I give up. Where's the rapidly renewable credit in LEED-CS V2009? I admit I have not kept up on the changes; has it gone away like the slide rule and the dial phone? If so, why? It always seemed to me that rapidly renewable was a smart idea and actually sustainable. Can one of you who are more in tune to LEED rapidly renew my knowledge base? George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Cristiana Georgescu (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 12:25 pm:    LEED CS (Core and Shell) does not have the MRc6 rapidly renewable materials as a credit. This is due to the nature of the projects; it is just a shell, where the tenants are going to use their own lay-outs and materials. The credit is part of NC (new construction), Schools and CI (commercial interiors). Although is not part of the core and shell, it can be part of the Commercial Interiors if the tenant chooses to go for LEED. Cristiana Georgescu RA LEED AP BD+C Viridian Energy & Environmental, LLC 50 Washington Street Norwalk CT 06854 (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 12:03 pm:    Rapidly renewable materials are bogus. Case in point: we are specifying cork flooring in our new offices and guess how far the product is being shipped? Contractor tells us that the cork flooring we selected is coming from Canada. Our new offices are located in Texas, not upper state New York. Materials and Resources, Credit 6 (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 12:27 pm:    Do you have access to the internet? If so, type in www.usgbc.org into your browser (that's the name for the window that opens up when you click on Explorer or Firefox, etc.) address window and hit the "enter" button. From there, you will find links (places on the page that you can click to go to other areas of the web site) to LEED, and to LEED V3. From there, you may access both the LEED V3 checklist in Microsoft Excel and the full rating system in Adobe .pdf format. Both are free of charge to download. You will find that there has been no change from previous versions, still found as MR Credit 6: Rapidly Renewable Materials. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1210 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 02:26 pm:    And, the cork is almost certainly harvested in Portugal. However, generally speaking, this is the type of shortcoming we observe with many LEED credits. PS: Us northeasterners call it "upstate" New York. To many, that's everything more than, say, 50 miles from New York City! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1055 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 02:46 pm:    Rapidly renewable materials, like cork and bamboo, don't grow in a lot of climates. In fact, without doing any research at all, my inclination is that most grow in tropical or sub-tropical climates where the growing season is longer and there's sufficient moisture. So, unless your project is located within 500 miles of such an area, you will not get the Regional Materials points for that product. The points for rapidly renewable and regional materials are different. And, as a relocated New Yorker, upstate probably starts a little north of the Bronx (grin). Oh, and Unregistered Guest #3? I hope you were trying to make a joke, because if you weren't, you are being quite insulting. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 533 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 03:38 pm:    Ok, so it makes sense I guess that CS wouldn't have rapidly renewable, unless you are doing a straw bale wall. The wheat based boards are not used for sheathing, and I really can't think of any other core and shell area that would be rapidly renewable. Wood doors, maybe? I think we all recognize that the different credits are many times mutually exclusive, and that is a bit of the "bogus-ness" of parts of the LEED system. Still, there are rapidly renewable things that are not necessarily native here, but could be. Bamboo grows quite well south of the Bronx, for example here in Missouri, but we don't grow it commercially, just ornamentally. Sheep could do well here too, but again it doesn't seem to be a commercial success in the US. I think most wool for carpet comes from Australia. But I do believe that rapidly renewable, if managed sensibly, is a great way to be sustainable. I would suggest, for example, that our domestic managed wood production is on the verge of being a renewable (somewhat rapidly) resource. And I am sure we will see other developments in this area soon. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 05:43 pm:    I'd like to rename the rapidly renewable credit, the credit least likely to succeed. OUAT I had a LEED CI tenant fit out with bamboo walls and floors that didn't even meet the credit threshold for rapidly renewable. I have heard a rumor that someone in that southern garden state of New Jersey is growing bamboo for building products. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 282 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 06:35 pm:    Lynn when I was in NYC a native referred to New Jersey as the Mid West. Steve Taylor Senior Member Username: steveatwi Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2008 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 01:13 am:    George, I think that the Rapidly Renewable criteria were intentionally written to not include wood or wood products. Just one of the ways the bias against wood products shows up in LEED. Steve Khouw LEED AP Intermediate Member Username: karsidi Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2008 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 04:24 am:    As for me based in Asia, particularly in China, this is an easy low-cost credit, as bamboo is endemic here. We love bamboo or bamboo composite products, especially if sourced having FSC origins. Much to be said about the environmental benefits of bamboo. Sure in North America perhaps rapidly renewable products are rather Spartan, but hey LEED is a global application now, select appropriate credits most applicable for the locality of the site, starting with those that cost none or little to the Client! Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1056 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 10:35 am:    LOL, Mark...I know that we thought of it as the hinterlands. But then the eastern end of Long Island was pretty rural, too. I wonder if Lyptus would be qualified as rapidly renewable? I know that it reaches maturity much quicker than a standard tree - something in the 15 year range. That's pretty quick for a tree. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 957 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 12:59 pm:    well, Alder grows quickly too, but its mostly used for pulp for paper these days. Doesn't most Lyptus come from Australia? Its not like its grown commercially in California, where its rather weed-like in its intensity. A lot of times the really fast growing trees can't be used for anything but veneers because their growth rings are wide enough that there isn't a lot of structural capacity there -- see downgrading of Douglas Fir structural numbers. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1057 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 01:08 pm:    (Love that poodle) My understanding is that Lyptus is farmed in semi-tropical/tropical areas. I think a lot of it is in Brazil. It's a hybrid of eucalyptus, and is used for veneers as well as sawn lumber. Steve Taylor Senior Member Username: steveatwi Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2008 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 02:56 pm:    Lynn, Lyptus is not considered to be rapidly renewable, and FSC will not certify it because it is plantation grown in Brazil, not from a natural forest in Australia. Steve Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1058 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 03:11 pm:    But they will certify bamboo, which isn't even a tree! It's grass! Is it just because it's grown in another country? I know USGBC has problems believing that other countries can do the same things the USA can do, like certify and track... Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 409 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 03:27 pm:    Do Eskimos get RR credit for the ice in their igloos? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 858 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 03:34 pm:    Hmmm. But with "global warming," they may become repidly diminishing materials... Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 334 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 03:37 pm:    Yes. Grown, harvested and manufactured within 500 miles (800 km in Canada) of nowhere. They also get: SS Prerequiste 1 - Construction Activity Polution Prevention SS4.3 - Alternative Transportaion (Dog sleds and kayak). SS5.1 - Site Development - Protect or Restore habitat SS7.2 Heat Island Effect - Roof SS8 - Light Polution Reduction All of WE. You get the picture Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1059 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 03:43 pm:    And: MR2 MR3 MR4 (and maybe MR1) Definitely IDP12 and IDP13 and probably all of RPCs. Steve Taylor Senior Member Username: steveatwi Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2008 Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2010 - 01:55 pm:    Regarding Bamboo; I would guess that it is "Plantation Grown", but it does mature in less than 15 years. There is no tree that I know of that is harvest able in that time. As far as their prejudice against "plantation grown" forest products, I understand wanting to maintain natural forests. On the other hand, wheat and soybeans displace natural prairie, but I don't know where you can get free range tofu. Lumber also has a negative carbon footprint; when you harvest a ton of wood about half of it is carbon. When you use it in a building and a new tree grows the carbon is removed from the environment. In a wilderness area when the tree rots much of the carbon returns to the system. Maybe a future version of LEED will take this into account. Tim Werbstein, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tim_werbstein Post Number: 24 Registered: 09-2006 Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 07:38 am:    When does a planted and managed "forest" become a "plantation"? John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1211 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:22 pm:    Well, when you dig into it, FSC includes among its requirements various social and economic goals that go way beyond merely sustainably-harvested, non-monoculture forests. Yet, no other construction product or material has such far-reaching--and inappropriate for inclusion in sustainable rating systems, in my opinion--requirements. Why not, for example, require all mined minerals and metal ores to have a certification system that requires operators to reconstruct mined-out areas, pays a living wage, respects indigenous cultures and similar types of other 'stuff' that comes along with FSC?? No good reason I can see. Where does it end?? (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 02:46 pm:    John, You raise some really interesting points. Thanks. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 534 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:10 pm:    ...this thread has been reminding me (as does so much in life) of an old Monty Python skit, Dennis Moore. If you remember, Dennis was a Robin Hood type character who stole lupins from the rich and gave them to the poor, who ended up thoroughly sick of lupins. The Dennis Moore (John Cleese) gag line is: "Blimey, this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought." Methinks this sustainable design is trickier than we all thought, too. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 236 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 05:25 pm:    I think all of the "do good" stuff in FSC comes from the fact that the goal is to keep out illegally logged tropical hardwoods and prevent de-forestration of places like the amazon basin. One teak log brought out on a truck can bring a very high price and so mom and pop size to guerilla army size illegal logging is a very real problem in the developing countries. There just isn't a parallel situation for mining and minerals where people are digging holes in the ground everywhere and trying to sell a pickup truck load of iron ore on the black market. Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 09:10 am:    "When does a planted and managed "forest" become a "plantation"?"...when they start growing cotton trees?? And as far as the Inuit (Eskimo would be akin to calling black person "coloured") igloo is concerned, surely they can get a credit for harvesting the "melt" water in the summer too? Ride it like you stole it!!! Tim Werbstein, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tim_werbstein Post Number: 25 Registered: 09-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 10:33 am:    Ouch! Paul, I'm impressed that you wood root out an answer. It looks like the other readers were stumped! Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 359 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 10:39 am:    So we're branching out into puns now? (I twigged to that very quickly, don't ya know). Or better to just leaf this alone, and nip the trend in the bud? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1062 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 11:03 am:    Oak-y dokey. Yew guys should spruce up and not beech so much. Fir now, orange olive yew plum glad to be poplar? Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 15 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 11:17 am:    This new branch is chestnut right!! Ride it like you stole it!!! John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1213 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2010 - 06:03 pm:    There may not be the small-scale problems for mining that there is for logging, but there are plenty of cases of corrupt governments in cahoots with large corporations that despoil the land--often belonging to indigenous peoples who are not consulted and are paid poorly. Waste piles of overburden and processed ores cause pollution of water supplies and toxic air-borne dust. Two other good examples, though non-building related, are the recent 'diamond wars' in Africa, and the despoiling of huge areas of forest in Ecuador by oil waste. Gold mining in Peru is often dominated by small-scale 'independent' operators working in extraordinarily unsafe conditions for very low wages. The scale of destruction by mineral extraction world-wide is staggering.