Fabrication Samples

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Author Message John Hunter Senior Member Username: johnhunter Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 12:40 pm:    Recently, we've been getting real push-back from Contractors when it comes to submitting fabrication samples. "The manufacturer doesn't provide them" is generally the way the conversation begins. It is a particular issue with doors/ windows/ storefront. Just wondering if this is a local Northern California phenomenon or if it's part of a larger trend. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 413 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 01:18 pm:    Actually, the manufacturer doesn't provide them...for free. They charge for them and usually require some lead time. Because the Contractors often don't contact the manufacturer in time to get their requests in, this becomes a time impact as well as a cost impact. If you can, get the Contractor to show where they appear in the CPM (I can never get a separate submittal schedule). Identify that these are long-lead items. That way no can say that it's unreasonable to request. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 113 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 03:12 pm:    Ken, you have pointed out an issue that comes up repeatedly on projects. Submittal Schedule. Why do we still ask for them is we never get them? Owners just get the message that the architect is holding up the project by holding pay apps till we get the schedule. Also if the owner is reviewing the pay app and takes the architect out, then there is a problem getting them. aonon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 03:20 pm:    Here's a short list of more things often required to be submitted by Contractor according to the Contract Documents, not "provided" by manufacturers: Mockups. Paint drawdown samples. Transparent finish/stain samples. Precast concrete panels. Decorative metal railing weld/finish samples/panels. I am sure there are plenty more. By Contractor's logic, all samples that he doesn't want to provide because a "manufacturer" doesn't do it (or not for free any way), he doesn't have to. Here's a newsflash for the Contractor - You are required to do what the Contract Documents stipulate! How you accomplish is your job! And your problem! And what you agreed to when signing the Contract!!! I have ZERO patience for these sorts of shenanigans from (some) Contractors, and I usually simply reply Please Comply With Contract Documents and move on to things that actually require my attention. This has served me very well. spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 03:38 pm:    I agree that getting fabrication samples is a problem at times but I also believe that we need to reconsider the need for such items in some situations. I believe that a mass produced product like windows can often be reviewed based upon specification data, product submittals (that actually tell you what you are getting) and if needed a visit to a local installation of the same product in place. I know of some architects who insist on fabrication samples of products that are widely used in the industry with multiple examples installed and in use. What is the benefit of a small sample window (maybe your kids playhouse. that's what I did with mine years ago) I am not trying to be confrontational I would really like to know if there is something I have been missing by not requiring custom made samples for review. What about compromising and requiring a mock-up that can remain as part of the finised work. (I suppose this may create a timing issue if the mock-up is unacceptable) Now if you are talking about a custom made finished product then I completely agree that a sample is advisable. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 605 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2013 - 11:35 pm:    The comment about the necessity for fabrication samples is well-taken. What would be the benefit of a sample of, say, an alumiminum window if the Contractor will be providing the specified series manufactured by the Basis-of-Design manufacturer? Supposedly, the architect has researched and is already familiar with the specified product. The benefit of a fabrication sample is when the submittal is for other than the specified product of the Basis-of-Design manufacturer. The fabrication sample can expedite the submittal review and help validate the equivalence of the proposed product (positive benefit to Contractor) or expose the non-conformance of the product (negative consequence for Contractor). I sometimes will use a qualifying statement for some submittals: "If other than the specificed product by the Basis-of-Design manufacturer, submit ..." I think this cuts down on fishing expeditions of undocumented substitutions and lessens the claim that the architect is delaying the project without justification by not accepting the submitted product. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1295 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 02:45 pm:    and... to answer the other point. if you don't get the submittal schedule, you can always hold up the pay application. we call for it to be submitted before the first pay app, and therefore, always get it. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 606 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:54 am:    Anne!! You can't hold up paying the Contractor just because the Contractor has not complied with the requirements of the Contract. After all, just like the specs, construction schedules are merely words and numbers on paper. Who ever reads them? What harm is there if there's no construction schedule. The Contractor has surely did lots of building constructions. Schedule? He don't need no CPM or PERT or GANTT to run the job. Of course, if you have had experience on a competitively bid project (all projects are competitively bid at the subcontractor and supplier levels), that was awarded to the low bidder (the one who made the greatest mistakes in bidding), that progresses slowly, is weakly managed and shows more attention to claims than completion, the experience will demonstrate the importance of timely and complete construction progress and submittals schedules. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1475 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:00 pm:    My old firm required that a line-item for submittal schedule be included in the schedule of values (along with a bunch of other Div 01 stuff). That made it pretty simple to withhold $, and we did.